Winter tyres vol 2

Author
Discussion

FiF

43,962 posts

250 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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RicksAlfas said:
Barchettaman said:
I can help you with that.

Worn winters are bloody lethal in cold/wet conditions. Just comically understeery.
Were they really old?
I've run a couple of sets down past 4mm and the only real difference I noticed was poorer snow performance.
According to my own backside feel assessment system, as soon as they go below 5mm then snow performance starts to drop, but performance on wet slush and on melting packed ice drops off really quite markedly, that's ice with a layer of water on top, but that stuff is do bloody slippery anyway. Clear cold ice, again not good, but what else other than spikes really grips on sheet polished ice.

Clean dry and wet roads not so much difference, though if really worn then in downpour conditions they struggle like any other well worn tyre. No objective data just based on feel.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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Good to see a vid that finally answers the question!

We don't have a harsh enough climate to justify a winter tyre. I'll be looking for a set of all seasons next.

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Good to see a vid that finally answers the question!

We don't have a harsh enough climate to justify a winter tyre. I'll be looking for a set of all seasons next.
One test doesn’t answer any question, and even if it did there are usage scenarios that make winter tyres the logical choice for some of the year in the UK.

Turbojuice

598 posts

88 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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jon- said:
Sadly with tyre testing, it's impossible to test every possible combination of variables. We do what we can to give a guide, then hope peoples common sense will apply our findings to their own personal driving patterns.

My changeover point opinion changed because I didn't believe the 7c rule before, I thought for dry the summer tyre would always win, and for wet, the summer tyre would take an advantage at around 4-5c, not 10c. OUtside of the official test I even tried putting extra energy into the summer tyre to bring the temps up, but it didn't help as much as I thought.

Thanks to everyone else for the kind words, as always, any suggestions for videos will certainly be well received.
One i'd be interested in is how both winter-biased and summer-biased all season tyres cope in the heights of the summer versus traditional summer tyres. It's clear that a modern all season will do a damn good job in the winter, so would be good to see how it does at the other end of the spectrum.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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Kawasicki said:
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Good to see a vid that finally answers the question!

We don't have a harsh enough climate to justify a winter tyre. I'll be looking for a set of all seasons next.
One test doesn’t answer any question, and even if it did there are usage scenarios that make winter tyres the logical choice for some of the year in the UK.
Think I'll stick with the factual vid thanks.

Densetsu

40 posts

54 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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What about all-season vs all-weather?

Would be interested to see a technical video on age'd winter tyres as well. New vs Old/new stock.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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I just swapped out the 17" standard tyres on my 2019 MX5 with 205/45 R17 Bridgestones for a set of 16" wheels with Goodyear Vector 4 seasons on in 195/55 R16. I went for the slightly higher profile to keep the rolling radius the same

I went with all seasons rather than full winters as the snow performance is only slightly lower, but all other aspects are slightly better. In truth these all season tyres appear to be winters with a slight bias towards warmer/drier performance over snow performance - this seems a better match for a UK winter to me.

First impressions are that it feels noticeably smoother (as you'd expect with the tractor like sidewall), you can feel extra lean (squidge?) when cornering, and dry grip on a cold dry road is substantially lower. It stepped sideways during a full bore 1-2 shift, which it has never done before (I did determine that my 2.0 ND2 is decisively quicker than a GT86 though...) the other night when it was about 2C. Road temp would have been higher as we're done deep into winter yet.

It is now far easier to get the back to step out, sometimes alarmingly so, which is fun but does suggest a much lower dry grip level than a simple 1cm of lost width would account for.

I'm sure I'll be grateful for them in ice and snow but if you're a grip fiend in any other conditions I'd approach with serious caution.

tr7v8

7,186 posts

227 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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stickleback123 said:
I just swapped out the 17" standard tyres on my 2019 MX5 with 205/45 R17 Bridgestones for a set of 16" wheels with Goodyear Vector 4 seasons on in 195/55 R16. I went for the slightly higher profile to keep the rolling radius the same

I went with all seasons rather than full winters as the snow performance is only slightly lower, but all other aspects are slightly better. In truth these all season tyres appear to be winters with a slight bias towards warmer/drier performance over snow performance - this seems a better match for a UK winter to me.

First impressions are that it feels noticeably smoother (as you'd expect with the tractor like sidewall), you can feel extra lean (squidge?) when cornering, and dry grip on a cold dry road is substantially lower. It stepped sideways during a full bore 1-2 shift, which it has never done before (I did determine that my 2.0 ND2 is decisively quicker than a GT86 though...) the other night when it was about 2C. Road temp would have been higher as we're done deep into winter yet.

It is now far easier to get the back to step out, sometimes alarmingly so, which is fun but does suggest a much lower dry grip level than a simple 1cm of lost width would account for.

I'm sure I'll be grateful for them in ice and snow but if you're a grip fiend in any other conditions I'd approach with serious caution.
Are they run or scrubbed in yet? They'll need 200-500miles on them before tey have done enough heat cycles & worn off the release agent.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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tr7v8 said:
Are they run or scrubbed in yet? They'll need 200-500miles on them before tey have done enough heat cycles & worn off the release agent.
They hadn't at that point. Probably done 250-400 miles now, although mostly motorway, and they are still quite exciting.

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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Are we supposed to be surprised that a winter tyre has less grip than a summer tyre on dry roads?

Ron99

1,985 posts

80 months

Friday 6th December 2019
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Kawasicki said:
Are we supposed to be surprised that a winter tyre has less grip than a summer tyre on dry roads?
I'm not surprised.

In Jon's test, the Conti All Season tyre was about 5% worse in dry braking in low-single-digit temperatures and the winter tyre was about 10% worse.
Vectors are, in my view, basically a winter tyre with an all season label stuck on them, so Vectors having about 10% worse dry grip at 2'C like a winter tyre wouldn't surprise me.

And the change to 5% narrower tyres mentioned by the poster above isn't likely to help lateral grip.

So overall the poster above could have lost 15% of their lateral grip on a dry road.



Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
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ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Kawasicki said:
ruprechtmonkeyboy said:
Good to see a vid that finally answers the question!

We don't have a harsh enough climate to justify a winter tyre. I'll be looking for a set of all seasons next.
One test doesn’t answer any question, and even if it did there are usage scenarios that make winter tyres the logical choice for some of the year in the UK.
Think I'll stick with the factual vid thanks.
Ok, just remember that it is more sensible to base decisions on more than one test result.

Another factual vid could give a different result...and they could both be correct.

FiF

43,962 posts

250 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
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Kawasicki said:
Are we supposed to be surprised that a winter tyre has less grip than a summer tyre on dry roads?
Apparently, couple of years back someone on here put full winters on a BMW M3 and then complained that they didn't feel precise negotiating sweeping bends on the M62 motorway at well into three figure speeds. Bends that officially had a design speed of 90mph.

No accounting for stupid.

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
quotequote all
FiF said:
Kawasicki said:
Are we supposed to be surprised that a winter tyre has less grip than a summer tyre on dry roads?
Apparently, couple of years back someone on here put full winters on a BMW M3 and then complained that they didn't feel precise negotiating sweeping bends on the M62 motorway at well into three figure speeds. Bends that officially had a design speed of 90mph.

No accounting for stupid.
There are so many people that seem to think only in binary.

“A winter tyre is better in winter!“

Well, no, not always.

“A winter tyre is better on very cold roads!“

Again, not always.

What does “better“ mean anyway?





anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
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Ron99 said:
Kawasicki said:
Are we supposed to be surprised that a winter tyre has less grip than a summer tyre on dry roads?
I'm not surprised.

In Jon's test, the Conti All Season tyre was about 5% worse in dry braking in low-single-digit temperatures and the winter tyre was about 10% worse.
Vectors are, in my view, basically a winter tyre with an all season label stuck on them, so Vectors having about 10% worse dry grip at 2'C like a winter tyre wouldn't surprise me.

And the change to 5% narrower tyres mentioned by the poster above isn't likely to help lateral grip.

So overall the poster above could have lost 15% of their lateral grip on a dry road.
I'm not a cretin, I was expecting a drop in grip of maybe 20% or so on cool dry roads, but it seems to be considerably more than that. At 1/3rd throttle turns into junctions the rear will now consistently step out, it used to take acts of great brutality or stupidity to get the same effect.

Straight line braking "feels" (for what feel is worth) to be about 15% worse, but cornering is a very different matter. I'm having to be really quite cautious with the car, which suggests considerably more than a straight 15% drop.

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
FiF said:
Kawasicki said:
Are we supposed to be surprised that a winter tyre has less grip than a summer tyre on dry roads?
Apparently, couple of years back someone on here put full winters on a BMW M3 and then complained that they didn't feel precise negotiating sweeping bends on the M62 motorway at well into three figure speeds. Bends that officially had a design speed of 90mph.

No accounting for stupid.
There are so many people that seem to think only in binary.

“A winter tyre is better in winter!“

Well, no, not always.

“A winter tyre is better on very cold roads!“

Again, not always.

What does “better“ mean anyway?
More than likely tyre technology has vastly improved since the M62 was carved across the NW. Many 'bends' are so sweeping you could take them well in excess of 90.

Ron99

1,985 posts

80 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
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Kawasicki said:
Ok, just remember that it is more sensible to base decisions on more than one test result.
I agree.

How about considering the recent all-season tyre test in a UK publication ('AE'), where Conti Prem and Conti Winter were used as reference tyres?

In their wet braking, Conti Winter, Conti All Season and Goodyear Vector were very similar to Conti Premium Contact.
In their wet handling test, all the tyres beat the Conti Prems, with Conti Winter and Goodyear Vector performing particularly well.
Not surprisingly, in the dry testing the Conti Winter and Goodyear Vector were noticeably behind the Conti Prems although the Michelin CrossClimate were quite close.

And my 'butt dyno' agrees because the all-season tyres (CC+ and Vector 2) on two of our household's cars are noticeably better on cool, damp roads than our two cars with summer tyres (P Zero and Conti Eco).

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
quotequote all
stickleback123 said:
I'm not a cretin, I was expecting a drop in grip of maybe 20% or so on cool dry roads, but it seems to be considerably more than that. At 1/3rd throttle turns into junctions the rear will now consistently step out, it used to take acts of great brutality or stupidity to get the same effect.

Straight line braking "feels" (for what feel is worth) to be about 15% worse, but cornering is a very different matter. I'm having to be really quite cautious with the car, which suggests considerably more than a straight 15% drop.
I stuck some winters on an AMG a few years ago and based on that experience would broadly concur with your evaluation.

B'stard Child

28,324 posts

245 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
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stickleback123 said:
First impressions are that it feels noticeably smoother (as you'd expect with the tractor like sidewall),
Made me laugh reading about a 55 profile being compared to tractor like sidewall - thanks

Just shows how far down the route the world has gone with it's obsession with rubber band tyres & sidewalls biggrin

Ron99

1,985 posts

80 months

Saturday 7th December 2019
quotequote all
stickleback123 said:
I'm not a cretin, I was expecting a drop in grip of maybe 20% or so on cool dry roads, but it seems to be considerably more than that. At 1/3rd throttle turns into junctions the rear will now consistently step out, it used to take acts of great brutality or stupidity to get the same effect.

Straight line braking "feels" (for what feel is worth) to be about 15% worse, but cornering is a very different matter. I'm having to be really quite cautious with the car, which suggests considerably more than a straight 15% drop.
That sounds surprisingly bad. Much worse than I would have expected and much worse than I have experienced with the (occasional) use of the wife's car with Vector 2 (205/55R16H91).

I can only suggest checking tyre pressures or giving more time for the factory tyre coating to wear off and the tyres to run-in.
If they don't get better soon then they probably won't ever be good enough for your usage and you might be better looking at reverting to your previous tyres or looking into Michelin CrossClimate or Bridgestone Weather Control. Some people say Vredestein Quatracs are fairly sporty all-season tyres too.

edit:
Also in my experience lack of weight over the wheels, especially combined with firmer suspension, and even more so with relatively high power:weight, can cause issues with traction regardless of which tyre is fitted.

Edited by Ron99 on Saturday 7th December 11:59