Winter tyres vol 2

[popeyewhite]

C7 JFW said:

RicksAlfas said:

There is nothing worse than the ABS kicking in on a snowy descent though. The car feels like it's running away.

It does an incredible job of hauling my Subaru STI, on winters, to a full stop in those circumstances. There's no way I could beat the ABS's performance.

Some 4x4s have 'hill descent'. Just don't need brakes at all. Well, not yet anyway

[Davie]

Regarding the Focus nuts, I had Ford steels on her V50 (basically, a Focus!) and it looked similar and gave no issues. Now have them on a P2 V70 (that one confused the beards) and it's fine like that too.

[FunkyNige]

Two winters ago I was converted to the benefits of winter tyres when my wife had them fitted to her car, so last November (as in 13 months ago) when my A3 needed 4 new tyres I put on some Cross Climates. Typically, we've no ice or snow since so I don't have any personal experience with them in really bad weather but I was impressed with them in the cold+wet conditions.

Fast forward to now and I've just bought a new car (Discovery Sport) that came with Michelin Latitude Tour HP tyres, but what exactly are these tyres?
Michelin says they are Summer with Mud + Snow
Black Circles says "The Michelin Latitude Tour HP is ideal for crossover vehicles and luxury 4x4s offering fuel efficiency and better handling in the rain and snow."

So will I be driving into a ditch at the first sign of a cold wet road or will they be as good as the Cross Climates on my A3?

[jon-]

They're not compounded like the CrossClimate, they're a more traditional summer compound so don't expect any miracles in the very cold, or snow like the CrossClimates can perform.

But they will be better than a summer UHP tyre like the Pilot Sport 4S.

[GetCarter]

popeyewhite said:

C7 JFW said:

RicksAlfas said:

There is nothing worse than the ABS kicking in on a snowy descent though. The car feels like it's running away.

It does an incredible job of hauling my Subaru STI, on winters, to a full stop in those circumstances. There's no way I could beat the ABS's performance.

Some 4x4s have 'hill descent'. Just don't need brakes at all. Well, not yet anyway

I've had hill descent ctrl on my last four (4x4) cars. Stunning bit of tech on ice/snow 1:3 hills up here in the Highlands - Just steer, the rest sorted, each wheel independently controlled, better controlled descent that I ever could with a single brake pedal.

Michelin CrossClimates are a great tyre for all seasons, though they are expensive and wear quickly in summer.

FYI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YO0zyQh2l3M&t=...

Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 19th December 16:53

[Munter]

FunkyNige said:

Two winters ago I was converted to the benefits of winter tyres when my wife had them fitted to her car, so last November (as in 13 months ago) when my A3 needed 4 new tyres I put on some Cross Climates. Typically, we've no ice or snow since so I don't have any personal experience with them in really bad weather but I was impressed with them in the cold+wet conditions.

Fast forward to now and I've just bought a new car (Discovery Sport) that came with Michelin Latitude Tour HP tyres, but what exactly are these tyres?
Michelin says they are Summer with Mud + Snow
Black Circles says "The Michelin Latitude Tour HP is ideal for crossover vehicles and luxury 4x4s offering fuel efficiency and better handling in the rain and snow."

So will I be driving into a ditch at the first sign of a cold wet road or will they be as good as the Cross Climates on my A3?

M+S marker is....bks. It essentially just measures how much of the contact patch is given over to grooves as opposed to rubber. It's no guarantee of anything related to performance in mud/snow.

[BaldOldMan]

M+S usually indicates an open tread block pattern that allows the tyre to self clear mud or snow rather than it clogging up the tread.

It’s nothing to do with how it performs in the cold, wet, ice or even compacted snow.

In fact the best tyres for clearing mud & snow are appalling in other conditions as they are what we used to call knobbly - like mountain bike tyres.

[anonymous-user]

Munter said:

FunkyNige said:

Two winters ago I was converted to the benefits of winter tyres when my wife had them fitted to her car, so last November (as in 13 months ago) when my A3 needed 4 new tyres I put on some Cross Climates. Typically, we've no ice or snow since so I don't have any personal experience with them in really bad weather but I was impressed with them in the cold+wet conditions.

Fast forward to now and I've just bought a new car (Discovery Sport) that came with Michelin Latitude Tour HP tyres, but what exactly are these tyres?
Michelin says they are Summer with Mud + Snow
Black Circles says "The Michelin Latitude Tour HP is ideal for crossover vehicles and luxury 4x4s offering fuel efficiency and better handling in the rain and snow."

So will I be driving into a ditch at the first sign of a cold wet road or will they be as good as the Cross Climates on my A3?

M+S marker is....bks. It essentially just measures how much of the contact patch is given over to grooves as opposed to rubber. It's no guarantee of anything related to performance in mud/snow.

The M+S tyres (Pirelli) on my old Range Rover I found were brilliant in the snow and winter weather. So your post is incorrect I'm afraid.

[RicksAlfas]

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

The M+S tyres (Pirelli) on my old Range Rover I found were brilliant in the snow and winter weather. So your post is incorrect I'm afraid.

For balance, the M+S tyres (Goodyear) on my old Range Rover were absolutely lethal in snow and winter weather.
The M+S label in isolation is absolutely no indication that the tyres will be good in winter.

[BaldOldMan]

RicksAlfas said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

The M+S tyres (Pirelli) on my old Range Rover I found were brilliant in the snow and winter weather. So your post is incorrect I'm afraid.

For balance, the M+S tyres (Goodyear) on my old Range Rover were absolutely lethal in snow and winter weather.
The M+S label in isolation is absolutely no indication that the tyres will be good in winter.

Is the correct answer

[kiethton]

I fitted a set of Nokian winters to my Exige a few weeks ago, not sure if it’s due to the pressures being a little high but my god are they awful. The AD08R’s that we’re on there before would have more grip in the same conditions (c3* and greasy) - I was getting wheel spin on cam changes in 2nd/3rd and its a NA car!

Tempted to say it was a bad experiment and go back to my tack-biased summer tyres which are materially grippier.

[Kawasicki]

kiethton said:

I fitted a set of Nokian winters to my Exige a few weeks ago, not sure if it’s due to the pressures being a little high but my god are they awful. The AD08R’s that we’re on there before would have more grip in the same conditions (c3* and greasy) - I was getting wheel spin on cam changes in 2nd/3rd and its a NA car!

Tempted to say it was a bad experiment and go back to my tack-biased summer tyres which are materially grippier.

Some winter tyres are bad...some don't suit the style of vehicle they're fitted too...and finally some winter tyres don't suit particular driving styles.

There are no guarantees!

[anonymous-user]

BaldOldMan said:

RicksAlfas said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

The M+S tyres (Pirelli) on my old Range Rover I found were brilliant in the snow and winter weather. So your post is incorrect I'm afraid.

For balance, the M+S tyres (Goodyear) on my old Range Rover were absolutely lethal in snow and winter weather.
The M+S label in isolation is absolutely no indication that the tyres will be good in winter.

Is the correct answer

Afraid not. Unless of course you had the same model and year Range Rover as Rick, with the same tyres at the same stage of wear and drove back to back in the same test conditions. Otherwise it's impossible to come to your conclusion.

All I can say is that the Pirellis on mine were very good in winter.

[Munter]

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

Afraid not. Unless of course you had the same model and year Range Rover as Rick, with the same tyres at the same stage of wear and drove back to back in the same test conditions. Otherwise it's impossible to come to your conclusion.

All I can say is that the Pirellis on mine were very good in winter.

Yes but not because they were M+S rated. Triangle have M+S rating on their tyres I had on a car. But we're essentially a "summer" tread pattern.

If people want winter tyres they need to look for the 3peaks symbol. Not M+S which as I stated before is not related to the performance of the tyre in any conditions at all.

[popeyewhite]

Munter said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

Afraid not. Unless of course you had the same model and year Range Rover as Rick, with the same tyres at the same stage of wear and drove back to back in the same test conditions. Otherwise it's impossible to come to your conclusion.

All I can say is that the Pirellis on mine were very good in winter.

Yes but not because they were M+S rated. Triangle have M+S rating on their tyres I had on a car. But we're essentially a "summer" tread pattern.

If people want winter tyres they need to look for the 3peaks symbol. Not M+S which as I stated before is not related to the performance of the tyre in any conditions at all.

Non winter M+S A/t tyres will do fine in wintery conditions - In a big vehicle like a 4x4 the driver should be taking it very easy anyway and if so something like a GGat2 will get you most places. Of course the ideal would be something like the Yoko Geolandar AT/s M+S 3PMSL., but it won't get you any further.

[jon-]

I have some experience in this area, the M+S marker is meaningless. I Believe the only requirement is to have a certain percentage of land/voice.

Mountain and snowflake symbol is better, but it's still a relatively weak test compared to a modern all season or winter tyre. Checking out tests and reviews is still the best way foward

[popeyewhite]

jon- said:

I have some experience in this area, the M+S marker is meaningless.

Are you saying an increase in the gaps between tread blocks doesn't increase mud and snow performance?

[Munter]

popeyewhite said:

jon- said:

I have some experience in this area, the M+S marker is meaningless.

Are you saying an increase in the gaps between tread blocks doesn't increase mud and snow performance?

That's not what the M+S rating is measured on.

Edit:
This tyre is M+S rated. But looking at it it's clearly going to be rubbish in M or S. Would you defend the M+S marking recommending this tyre for use in M+S conditions?

Edited by Munter on Friday 20th December 15:18

[popeyewhite]

Munter said:

popeyewhite said:

jon- said:

I have some experience in this area, the M+S marker is meaningless.

Are you saying an increase in the gaps between tread blocks doesn't increase mud and snow performance?

That's not what the M+S rating is measured on.

According to one website - it is. Another site states angled gaps and more pronounced tyre edges. Is that not going to increase a tyre's performance in snow/mud?

[Munter]

popeyewhite said:

According to one website - it is. Another site states angled gaps and more pronounced tyre edges. Is that not going to increase a tyre's performance in snow/mud?

See edit above. Will you defend that tyre as being good in M or S based on it having M+S rating? Really?

Last time I looked it up. It's just % groove vs % rubber in the contact patch/surface of the tyre. Which way back when might have been a good indicator between a road tyre and an mud/snow type tyre. In the modern world however when we're not using Goodyear Grand Prix(s) any more... It's bks as a way to decide of a tyre will have any M+S performance.