RE: Ferrari California T: Review
Discussion
Thom said:
In my humble experience mapping several turbocharged engines as a DIYer, a turbo will always load the engine harder in a taller gear, if the same fixed boost settings apply in all gears. When using a suitably-sized turbo, it will always build boost sooner in the RPM range and torque will almost always be higher mid range in the tallest gear. There is no trickery in this, it's just engine physics.
In fact, in order to reach the best engine efficiency and highest/flattest/broadest torque band possible, the art of programming the boost curve consists in mapping boost delivery so that torque delivery remains as much as physically possible the same in all gears. This is the opposite of what Ferrari seem to have done here, and thankfully so, as the typical super flat, modern TDI-style torque delivery makes for mega fast but equally boring engines that accelerate the same pretty much regardless or RPM. To avoid that electric motor feel, its associated wheel spin at lower gears and simulate the lively power delivery of NA engine, we do not want too much torque in the lower gears. Would be cool to know the spec of the turbos used here.
no mention of variable geometry, strange that Porsche seem to be the only ones using it on petrol enginesIn fact, in order to reach the best engine efficiency and highest/flattest/broadest torque band possible, the art of programming the boost curve consists in mapping boost delivery so that torque delivery remains as much as physically possible the same in all gears. This is the opposite of what Ferrari seem to have done here, and thankfully so, as the typical super flat, modern TDI-style torque delivery makes for mega fast but equally boring engines that accelerate the same pretty much regardless or RPM. To avoid that electric motor feel, its associated wheel spin at lower gears and simulate the lively power delivery of NA engine, we do not want too much torque in the lower gears. Would be cool to know the spec of the turbos used here.
Edited by Thom on Tuesday 3rd June 21:42
I see Chris Harris's charm offensive continues here on PH.
I really struggle to see what his many admirers see.
Despite extraordinary support on here, his posts are usually aggressive, defensive, paranoid and often threatening.
He comes across as a very insecure, foul tempered little man and has done some really s
tty things to a number of long standing ph members.
If he's so angry about people's suspicions about him and his relationship with the car companies why not just deal with it intelligently, be open about it and treat people with a bit of respect? It would be a far more effective approach than just continuing to insult people who don't know the inner workings of car journalism. It's not up to us to assume everything is above board. It's up to him to explain how it works. Yet he's incensed how anyone could dare question him.
Better still address it without the hissy fits in an article and lay the whole issue to rest. It would be a hell of a lot more interesting than reading about him doing his bike test.
I really struggle to see what his many admirers see.
Despite extraordinary support on here, his posts are usually aggressive, defensive, paranoid and often threatening.
He comes across as a very insecure, foul tempered little man and has done some really s
tty things to a number of long standing ph members. If he's so angry about people's suspicions about him and his relationship with the car companies why not just deal with it intelligently, be open about it and treat people with a bit of respect? It would be a far more effective approach than just continuing to insult people who don't know the inner workings of car journalism. It's not up to us to assume everything is above board. It's up to him to explain how it works. Yet he's incensed how anyone could dare question him.
Better still address it without the hissy fits in an article and lay the whole issue to rest. It would be a hell of a lot more interesting than reading about him doing his bike test.
The Pits said:
He's not a fan of Harris
OK, you've made your point, and in pretty personal terms. I think most of us - Chris included - are probably more interested discussing the turbo mapping tech and its influence on the next generation of Ferrari engines and cars. I'd rather the atmosphere was conducive to that, if it's all the same.
Cheers,
Dan
Edited by Dan Trent on Wednesday 4th June 11:24
Dan Trent said:
The Pits said:
He's not a fan of Harris
OK, you've made your point, and in pretty personal terms. I think most of us - Chris included - are probably more interested discussing the turbo mapping tech and its influence on the next generation of Ferrari engines and cars. I'd rather the atmosphere was conducive to that, if it's all the same.
Cheers,
Dan
Edited by Dan Trent on Wednesday 4th June 11:24
Whilst I find it odd in many ways they've artificially limited the torque and effectively made the car slower it SHOULD (in theory) make for a more exciting drive. I've been in a couple of performance turbocharged cars (over 500bhp) and have found the engines to be magnificent if far less exciting than less powerful NA units. If they can get power levels and economy (ultimately why turbocharging is here, these days) similar to the "non-mapped" units but more exciting then that is good. You could always get it re-mapped for more power lower in the rev range if you so desired.
The Pits said:
Stuff
I think people like him because he does good, entertaining motoring journalism without all the childish cr@p you get from the likes of Clarkson but has more personality and is a lot more watchable on camera than other jornos like Meaden and Sutcliffe.Interestingly though you seem to pop up on every thread about him (and Porsches) with nothing of any value to say and also come across as aggresive.
Dan Trent said:
OK, you've made your point, and in pretty personal terms. I think most of us - Chris included - are probably more interested discussing the turbo mapping tech and its influence on the next generation of Ferrari engines and cars. I'd rather the atmosphere was conducive to that, if it's all the same.
Cheers,
Dan
Edited by Dan Trent on Wednesday 4th June 11:24
Happy to discuss Turbo mapping but I hope someone at Pistonheads is having words with Dame Harris every time he launches an entirely personal attack on a long standing contributor to this forum.
Turbo mapping has been going on for years but until now to preserve gearboxes. The first Esprit V8s held back torque in the early gears to protect the renault sourced gearbox (that was never designed with a twin turbo V8 in mind). The Esprit Sport 350 allowed more torque in the lower gears and by thunder you could feel the difference. But it didn't make the base car feel artificial or fake in any way.
The AMG 65 V12 twin turbo SLs were heavily torque limited at lower speeds weren't they? I haven't driven one of those but it must be a bit weird to feel the car get exponentially faster with every gear. One minute struggling to despatch an Impreza off the line, the next minute troubling a Murcielago on the autobahn. The trouble is, the most fun and relevant part of the performance is usually the part you find in the early gears.
But there's a lot going on among the leading sports car makers to make purists anxious. I think we had imagined the beginning of the end to be further away. It seems like it's here already. However the latest hypercars are reassurance that whatever else, fast cars will still be exciting and will probably only get faster - but in more of an MP412C way than a 458 way.
Those (like me) that don't like the way things are going can just buy an old, appreciating classic and save a fortune in depreciation. Everyone's a winner surely?
Edited by The Pits on Wednesday 4th June 15:17
Oh but we love a bit of Harris-intrigue... Sorry Dan
Onto turbocharging, as the news has trickled out today about the 458 replacement, I do agree with those lamenting the death of the N/A engine.
It's sad that this is the case with emissions- I doubt there's a way to bypass them- but I honestly don't see where else car manufacturers can go now... I know that's a pretty dire statement to make but reading the Top Gear website 'announcing' the 458 update (did I just admit to reading TG on PistonHeads?) it sounds like Ferrari has reached the top of its game in the straight-line performance category, and that they're looking to maximize experience elsewhere.
Honestly, is 600 BHP+ going to be too much for the replacement? I think the only thing that will keep manufacturers on their toes and innovating is always having to jump another hurdle, bar a couple of suspension etc. updates, the chances are the replacement (if keeping the same engine) would be a little bit quicker, and different looking.
The reason I mentioned the style of review was that it explained the purpose of torque-limiting, and I found this fascinating; it's something for reviewers to discuss, and consumers to read about, far more interesting than the typical 'oh but turbocharging isn't as pure'....
Onto turbocharging, as the news has trickled out today about the 458 replacement, I do agree with those lamenting the death of the N/A engine.
It's sad that this is the case with emissions- I doubt there's a way to bypass them- but I honestly don't see where else car manufacturers can go now... I know that's a pretty dire statement to make but reading the Top Gear website 'announcing' the 458 update (did I just admit to reading TG on PistonHeads?) it sounds like Ferrari has reached the top of its game in the straight-line performance category, and that they're looking to maximize experience elsewhere.
Honestly, is 600 BHP+ going to be too much for the replacement? I think the only thing that will keep manufacturers on their toes and innovating is always having to jump another hurdle, bar a couple of suspension etc. updates, the chances are the replacement (if keeping the same engine) would be a little bit quicker, and different looking.
The reason I mentioned the style of review was that it explained the purpose of torque-limiting, and I found this fascinating; it's something for reviewers to discuss, and consumers to read about, far more interesting than the typical 'oh but turbocharging isn't as pure'....
TWW said:
Onto turbocharging, as the news has trickled out today about the 458 replacement, I do agree with those lamenting the death of the N/A engine.
Let's try to consider the glass half full instead of half empty - While turbocharged engines may become the norm in the long term, it should open a new market for independant tuners who will be asked to extract some properly exciting lively behaviours from engines that are for most positively dull when rolling out of the factory. I do not follow the diesel scene but there are already many companies about everywhere offering remaps. Can't see much wrong about a 1.6 diesel Polo developing 240bhp/350ft.lbs while returning 45 mpg, apart perhaps the noise, the smell and the black smoke.While it's still going to be hard to replicate the exact same high compression throttle response and absolute liveliness of a NA engine, there is already many solutions in store to liven up the character of a turbocharged engine.
In the particular case of Ferrari or other exotic brands, the question is if people who usually by these rather costly cars may be ready to have them remapped thus possibly affect their resale value, should a remap feel necessary, but it doesn't seem to be case since the article here clearly suggests Ferrari have worked hard to simulate the engine behaviour of a NA engine.
Porsche were probably the first genuinely successful big name to build its current heritage winning races with turbo engines. Let's see how long it will take Ferrari to broaden the view of its usual customer base by doing the same.
jacksparrow11 said:
Following the bite the other day we can expect more fishing like this.
What? This is a forum. It only works if people post opinions, that's what the box at the bottom is for isn't it?Mine, rightly or wrongly, is that a review of a new Ferrari (and a controversial one at that) that quotes the compression ratio as the first hard fact is probably not up there with the ones that turned me on to cars when I was kid. And is all the Fandango stuff any worse than anything done by Clarkson who is criticised (probably rightly)for being childish?
I happen to think Mr Harris at his best is very good, he has carved out a "not Clarkson (& friends) or Sutcliffe" niche for himself. I wish he'd talk more about what the car is like, rather than lumbering through the details of the engineering, but that's because I am getting old and therefore bored of numbers. Others may love that, and that's fine.
However, it must be hard to write about cars every day and not end up turning in the odd lazy "Top Trumps" piece that just quotes random numbers from a press release. This felt a bit like that to me when I read it.
"it truly was the worst car I drove in 2009" Really? I have driven a couple (including one of a handful of manual ones) and was perplexed by it, but the worst car? Honestly? Maybe "most disappointing", or "brand stretching", but it really isn't a bad car, although my wife hates them with a passion for purely aesthetic reasons. It is only bad because your expectations of a Ferrari are fixed and very high. The old one is like a DB9: Nice, but not as good as you'd wanted it to be.
A chap in a Ferrari dealership told me the other day it was "less feminine" than its predecessor. That painted a better picture than all this talk about forced induction, in fewer words.
But hey, it's only an opinion.
Thom said:
TWW said:
Onto turbocharging, as the news has trickled out today about the 458 replacement, I do agree with those lamenting the death of the N/A engine.
Let's try to consider the glass half full instead of half empty - While turbocharged engines may become the norm in the long term, it should open a new market for independant tuners who will be asked to extract some properly exciting lively behaviours from engines that are for most positively dull when rolling out of the factory.It's already in that situation now with some makers.
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