RE: AMG's new turbo V8
Discussion
Ducati have put more impressive tech in their new V twin bike engine.
Putting the turbos betwen the cylinder banks was done by BMW in 2008.
Why is tuning the engine to sound like a normally aspirated engine impressive and to be applauded?
This is the engine that Dr Bez has used to assign Aston Martin to being a coach builder and ensuring it uses turbo engines. Not his most impressive achievement but critical because the manufacturer above all else had to be German. Have Aston appointed a new MD?
The easy route of slapping turbos on is not something Ferrari, Lambo, Jaguar and a number of other manufacturers have deemed necessary across their range of engines.
As for the numbers, are these impressive. The home grown McLaren V8 is 3.8 ltrs with 641BHP and 500LB FT of torque. Ferrari's V8 is 3.85Ltr and 560BHP. BMW managed to build a similar engine in 2009 with 40 more BHP. Ferrari are making these numbers without turbos.
Come on PH - less of the German love in and more objective critique please.
Putting the turbos betwen the cylinder banks was done by BMW in 2008.
Why is tuning the engine to sound like a normally aspirated engine impressive and to be applauded?
This is the engine that Dr Bez has used to assign Aston Martin to being a coach builder and ensuring it uses turbo engines. Not his most impressive achievement but critical because the manufacturer above all else had to be German. Have Aston appointed a new MD?
The easy route of slapping turbos on is not something Ferrari, Lambo, Jaguar and a number of other manufacturers have deemed necessary across their range of engines.
As for the numbers, are these impressive. The home grown McLaren V8 is 3.8 ltrs with 641BHP and 500LB FT of torque. Ferrari's V8 is 3.85Ltr and 560BHP. BMW managed to build a similar engine in 2009 with 40 more BHP. Ferrari are making these numbers without turbos.
Come on PH - less of the German love in and more objective critique please.
What's the more impressive tech that Ducati have used?
Why is tuning the engine to make it sound naturally aspirated impressive??? Because turbo engines almost always make a very unremarkable sound e.g. 911 turbo, latest F1 engines, most Audis etc.
Quoting McLaren and Ferrari engines is largely irrelevant when you consider the types of cars they power (super cars v heavy saloons etc). Yes they have higher specific outputs but there's nothing to say this engine won't in years to come. This is the first iteration of it and it's first application will be in the C class, so I'd say it's safe to expect more.
Lambo and Ferrari might not have forced induction yet (that's only a matter of time too - see the revised Californaia) but Jaguar have forced induction in every F Type and have replaced the naturally aspirated V8 in the XJ with a 3 litre 6 cylinder FI unit.
Maybe your critique is the less objective one and you're just bitter that AM will be using AMG engines?
Why is tuning the engine to make it sound naturally aspirated impressive??? Because turbo engines almost always make a very unremarkable sound e.g. 911 turbo, latest F1 engines, most Audis etc.
Quoting McLaren and Ferrari engines is largely irrelevant when you consider the types of cars they power (super cars v heavy saloons etc). Yes they have higher specific outputs but there's nothing to say this engine won't in years to come. This is the first iteration of it and it's first application will be in the C class, so I'd say it's safe to expect more.
Lambo and Ferrari might not have forced induction yet (that's only a matter of time too - see the revised Californaia) but Jaguar have forced induction in every F Type and have replaced the naturally aspirated V8 in the XJ with a 3 litre 6 cylinder FI unit.
Maybe your critique is the less objective one and you're just bitter that AM will be using AMG engines?
markcoznottz said:
You cannot help but be impressed at the engineering. But, like all these cgi films, in 15 years the tech will be old, the numbers conservative and the sound ordinary.
The funny odd thing is ... old skool 60s, 70s and 80s hipo V8 still sound the dogs. Are these our benchmarks? For me they are.AMG cuts it when it comes to this distinctive old skool V8 sound. Cars like the SLS turns everybodies head when it is in earrange.
BMW ... dunno. They say they put alot of effort in their soundengineering. Still, the 80s straight 6s were the last to have a proper note. Even the M3 V8 lacks the 'arriving' attention (cracks and rasps) like the AM and Jaguar V8s have.
AER said:
Most of what people think they know about bores and strokes and engines in general is plain b
ks, half-truths, myth and unreliable evidence.
They are figures one can relate to. Stuff like rod length to stroke ratio are more abstract to most.ks, half-truths, myth and unreliable evidence.I can see this turbo V8 in a new Pagani.
PH said:
That surprising undersquare layout helps fill the gap in low-end torque before the turbos do spool up, the fact it also means smaller pistons and the focus on reduced friction allowing the 7,000rpm-plus redline.
There is so much wrong with that^^^ i don't even know where to start...........Dan Trent said:
Max_Torque said:
There is so much wrong with that^^^ i don't even know where to start...........
Am reporting what I was told by Herr Schmid on the day but, please, elaborate. Not being facetious, genuinely interested!Dan
Basically, engine torque is independent of cylinder bore, but engine power is not. This is because to make power you need revs, and maximum revs depend upon piston velocity, that depends upon piston stroke.
The reasons this engine has small bores is the same as for every modern engine has small bores:
1) Reduced crevice volumes means lower engine out pollutant emissions, critical to meet EU6 emissions limits with non "lit off" catalysts immediately after cold engine start. (having two turbo's in the way also does not help in this regard, as there thermal inertia results in a colder gas stream that impinges on the pre-cats
2) Forced induction means you can use a smaller valve area and still make decent power/torque, and yet have more compact engine layout
3) The smaller bore means more accurate fuel mixture control with Direct Injection, which means a higher efficiency and lower pollutant emissions
smilo996 said:
Why is tuning the engine to sound like a normally aspirated engine impressive and to be applauded?
This is what I think. Stop apologising for making turbo engines, and just make proper turbo engines. Was the f40 really so bad for all its turbo lag? Would anyone remember the evo fq400 if it hadn't had all that lag?Just embrace the natural properties of turbo engines please. They'll never do as good an impression of a naturally aspirated engine as a naturally aspirated engine, so don't try. Let it be mechanical, hiss, bang big lump of power.
It's a bit tacky all this "we've tuned the exhausts and we think it sounds like a v8 now".
This is such an awesome post. I love AMG engines, even if I don't always love AMG cars.
One thing to say, though... They talk of the doom of big NA engines. The Corvette managed to achieve it, though? There are terribly stringent rules on these now - and I celebrate the advance in turbo tech, but surely we should equally applaud the Vette guys for actually managing to keep the massive NA engine going a little longer - for a new generation. All of a sudden it looks like a really impressive achievement, to me, especially as the Vette has to be one of the highest volume super-sportscars to be produced. I would imagine production will eclipse the AMG GT, perhaps not the M5 and suchlike, but still a remarkable stoicism and defence of the mighty NA V8 in my view.
One thing to say, though... They talk of the doom of big NA engines. The Corvette managed to achieve it, though? There are terribly stringent rules on these now - and I celebrate the advance in turbo tech, but surely we should equally applaud the Vette guys for actually managing to keep the massive NA engine going a little longer - for a new generation. All of a sudden it looks like a really impressive achievement, to me, especially as the Vette has to be one of the highest volume super-sportscars to be produced. I would imagine production will eclipse the AMG GT, perhaps not the M5 and suchlike, but still a remarkable stoicism and defence of the mighty NA V8 in my view.
Zombie said:
All that heat. In the bowles of the engine. Engineered properly and maintained by trained techs, it shouldn't be a problem, but 10 years later in the hands of the semi-trained indi:
"What's this bd fking heatsheil here for? it's taken an hour to remove it and it does nothing. FLUNG. Not putting that ttting thing back on...."
2 years later; engine grenades.
Cause; fuel starvation due to lack of insignificant (flung) or bent heat shield - result; melted pistons?
As I see it, our UK garages can't diagnose and fix 10 year diesel tech. I see little hope for the longevity of these engines, let alone this.
"What's this b
d fking heatsheil here for? it's taken an hour to remove it and it does nothing. FLUNG. Not putting that ttting thing back on...."2 years later; engine grenades.
Cause; fuel starvation due to lack of insignificant (flung) or bent heat shield - result; melted pistons?
As I see it, our UK garages can't diagnose and fix 10 year diesel tech. I see little hope for the longevity of these engines, let alone this.
Edited by Zombie on Friday 13th June 01:14
fair pointIt is an unusual position for the turbos
smilo996 said:
The easy route of slapping turbos on is not something Ferrari, Lambo, Jaguar and a number of other manufacturers have deemed necessary across their range of engines.
Erm the facelifted California is Turboed and the Jag is supercharged, Audi/Lambo are experts at forced induction (FI)Unfortunately FI is proven to lower emissions and increase power so I think we are stuck with it (as well as autos with a stupid number of gears)
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