Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[lauda]

flemke said:

I did think about whether to put the engine ahead of the Le Mans win. The engine is wonderful but at least to some extent it is, unlike the other factors, a hostage to technological progress. In 1992 it was extraordinary. In the intervening 25 years, however, there have been a few other wonderful NA engines produced. Maybe, or maybe not, the F1's engine is still in a class of its own, but Ferrari have produced a couple of V12s, and Porsche a V10, that are pretty special too.

Lexus had a pretty decent go at a V10 too.

[z4RRSchris]

TurboTerrific9 said:

Personally I'd place the engine above the win at Le Mans

did you decide not to take your F1 Gavin? or are you there?

[Joe911]

Boozy said:

I don't understand the dislike for JWW, he owns a McLaren, the video of the F1 was ok and he did this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKtIMhabfos

Clearly what Shmee and JWW, etc. do is popular - look at the youtube hits, their numbers are yuge.

I follow sports/super/hyper-cars quite closely, and I'm naturally an 11.2 on the geek scale, and I've been lucky enough to passenger or drive many things, I've raced too, and I have a deep interest in driving - that possibly makes me untypical so my comments about these dudes are likely not in tune with the many.

For me - I want to learn something new, or to get a real feeling for what a car would be like to drive or own. Watching someone in their twenties whoop and grin does nothing for me at all. These supercar events (Canonball etc.) where people drive badly and loudly just to attract attention, stay in pretentious places, and party all night leave me completely cold. For me cars are for the physical and emotional experience of driving.

I'm mostly pretty happy to watch Harris, Meaden, Frankel, etc. describe a car and tell me what is different (hopefully dynamically) between a 911R and a 991.2 GT3 - or between a 650 and a 675. I wouldn't trust JWW to tell me whether it's raining or not - he has zero credibility, he's not an experienced journalist, not a racer, not a motoring engineer - though he does grin convincingly, and bum a coffee.

As said already - it's vapid, vacuous.

[VladD]

Joe911 said:

Clearly what Shmee and JWW, etc. do is popular - look at the youtube hits, their numbers are yuge.

I follow sports/super/hyper-cars quite closely, and I'm naturally an 11.2 on the geek scale, and I've been lucky enough to passenger or drive many things, I've raced too, and I have a deep interest in driving - that possibly makes me untypical so my comments about these dudes are likely not in tune with the many.

For me - I want to learn something new, or to get a real feeling for what a car would be like to drive or own. Watching someone in their twenties whoop and grin does nothing for me at all. These supercar events (Canonball etc.) where people drive badly and loudly just to attract attention, stay in pretentious places, and party all night leave me completely cold. For me cars are for the physical and emotional experience of driving.

I'm mostly pretty happy to watch Harris, Meaden, Frankel, etc. describe a car and tell me what is different (hopefully dynamically) between a 911R and a 991.2 GT3 - or between a 650 and a 675. I wouldn't trust JWW to tell me whether it's raining or not - he has zero credibility, he's not an experienced journalist, not a racer, not a motoring engineer - though he does grin convincingly, and bum a coffee.

As said already - it's vapid, vacuous.

Amen.

[Swampy1982]

Joe911 said:

Clearly what Shmee and JWW, etc. do is popular - look at the youtube hits, their numbers are yuge.

I follow sports/super/hyper-cars quite closely, and I'm naturally an 11.2 on the geek scale, and I've been lucky enough to passenger or drive many things, I've raced too, and I have a deep interest in driving - that possibly makes me untypical so my comments about these dudes are likely not in tune with the many.

For me - I want to learn something new, or to get a real feeling for what a car would be like to drive or own. Watching someone in their twenties whoop and grin does nothing for me at all. These supercar events (Canonball etc.) where people drive badly and loudly just to attract attention, stay in pretentious places, and party all night leave me completely cold. For me cars are for the physical and emotional experience of driving.

I'm mostly pretty happy to watch Harris, Meaden, Frankel, etc. describe a car and tell me what is different (hopefully dynamically) between a 911R and a 991.2 GT3 - or between a 650 and a 675. I wouldn't trust JWW to tell me whether it's raining or not - he has zero credibility, he's not an experienced journalist, not a racer, not a motoring engineer - though he does grin convincingly, and bum a coffee.

As said already - it's vapid, vacuous.

If PH had a "post of the week", this would be it.

[Shmee]

One thing that I think is being overlooked is that the comments here are suggesting MrJWW is trying to be reviewer of the car, he's not!

Pistonheads is a very old school platform but to put it simply things are developing, the automotive industry and others are changing and the new term of 'influencer' sits alongside and in addition to existing content streams. There is a new audience enjoying this content on a wider scale than the hardcore automotive press, it's global and growing rapidly. Just as you find newspapers, magazines, TV and radio, you now have social media and the content is very different, as is the way it is received and interpreted.

JWW is not trying to be a journalist, or an engineer, or a race driver, just like anybody else in this space it comes down to a unique set of characteristics that come together to make the content you produce. If you do have a background in the industry or another story line then it can give you a wonderful head start and step up, but an influencer is a mix of sourcing the content ideas, creating the video content, editing it together and distributing it, then continuing this on an ongoing cycle. There is a reason that very few traditional journalists have succeeded in this space; and that's because although they have the technical ability to understand a car, very few create the lifestyle people are interested in seeing or have the business acumen to maximise their reach through the opportunities they have. Equally the level to which they can describe the car is only of interest to the top small percentile of potential audience anyway as the majority do not drive to the way they do. If you created your business around a tiny niche, unfortunately it's very hard to ever grow it to a large scale.

In particular JWW is trying to lead the lifestyle route and show the experience to a casual automotive fan or general luxury lifestyle enthusiast. If he produced the desperately high-level information video that is sought after by this thread then he would reach a smaller audience, have fewer followers, experience smaller business growth, and lower earnings as a result - that's obviously not in his interests.

[VladD]

Shmee said:

One thing that I think is being overlooked is that the comments here are suggesting MrJWW is trying to be reviewer of the car, he's not!

Pistonheads is a very old school platform but to put it simply things are developing, the automotive industry and others are changing and the new term of 'influencer' sits alongside and in addition to existing content streams. There is a new audience enjoying this content on a wider scale than the hardcore automotive press, it's global and growing rapidly. Just as you find newspapers, magazines, TV and radio, you now have social media and the content is very different, as is the way it is received and interpreted.

JWW is not trying to be a journalist, or an engineer, or a race driver, just like anybody else in this space it comes down to a unique set of characteristics that come together to make the content you produce. If you do have a background in the industry or another story line then it can give you a wonderful head start and step up, but an influencer is a mix of sourcing the content ideas, creating the video content, editing it together and distributing it, then continuing this on an ongoing cycle. There is a reason that very few traditional journalists have succeeded in this space; and that's because although they have the technical ability to understand a car, very few create the lifestyle people are interested in seeing or have the business acumen to maximise their reach through the opportunities they have. Equally the level to which they can describe the car is only of interest to the top small percentile of potential audience anyway as the majority do not drive to the way they do. If you created your business around a tiny niche, unfortunately it's very hard to ever grow it to a large scale.

In particular JWW is trying to lead the lifestyle route and show the experience to a casual automotive fan or general luxury lifestyle enthusiast. If he produced the desperately high-level information video that is sought after by this thread then he would reach a smaller audience, have fewer followers, experience smaller business growth, and lower earnings as a result - that's obviously not in his interests.

An interesting insight well explained.

[flemke]

Shmee said:

In particular JWW is trying to lead the lifestyle route and show the experience to a casual automotive fan or general luxury lifestyle enthusiast. If he produced the desperately high-level information video that is sought after by this thread then he would reach a smaller audience, have fewer followers, experience smaller business growth, and lower earnings as a result - that's obviously not in his interests.

The trend you describe is a perfect example of why the idea of allowing 16 year-olds to vote is insane. Yes, the lifestylists are out there, but their presence as a social and commercial dynamic should not be confused with something of substance or lasting value. Judging from this video, JWW is to cars as bubblegum is to food.

Edited by flemke on Wednesday 31st May 16:01

[Joe911]

Shmee said:

...
JWW is not trying to be a journalist, or an engineer, or a race driver, just like anybody else in this space it comes down to a unique set of characteristics that come together to make the content you produce. If you do have a background in the industry or another story line then it can give you a wonderful head start and step up, but an influencer is a mix of sourcing the content ideas, creating the video content, editing it together and distributing it, then continuing this on an ongoing cycle. There is a reason that very few traditional journalists have succeeded in this space; and that's because although they have the technical ability to understand a car, very few create the lifestyle people are interested in seeing or have the business acumen to maximise their reach through the opportunities they have. Equally the level to which they can describe the car is only of interest to the top small percentile of potential audience anyway as the majority do not drive to the way they do. If you created your business around a tiny niche, unfortunately it's very hard to ever grow it to a large scale.

In particular JWW is trying to lead the lifestyle route and show the experience to a casual automotive fan or general luxury lifestyle enthusiast. If he produced the desperately high-level information video that is sought after by this thread then he would reach a smaller audience, have fewer followers, experience smaller business growth, and lower earnings as a result - that's obviously not in his interests.

It would seem that the manufacturers believe in what JWW, and others do. I'm not saying that your point is wrong - am totally happy to believe that I'm the one (not the only one) who doesn't get it.

Your points rely on this idea of an 'influencer'. Who is being influenced, and to do what? Presumably the manufacturers hope that the general public seeing all this video content will one day buy their cars - is that right? I would guess that 99.99% of those who watch it cannot and will not ever be able to afford those cars (or the lifestyle), even if they were not already sold out (to people who have another 10 similar at home) when the car is launched.

Maybe I have the same problem with this that I have with 'Made in Chelsea' - the fact is I just don't get it. It's not a documentary, it's not made up, it's not real, it's badly done, young folk put the 'actors' on a pedestal ... but of all that - it's just not entertaining (to me).

Maybe I'm just jealous - loads of wealthy young men swanning about in cars that I can't afford, not doing anything that most of us would consider to be work. You could argue we'd all like that lifestyle - but it's not something that is open to us - is it not even rubbing our noses in it? Envy is not a good thing - and of course - we are not forced to watch it.

All the best.

[SydneyBridge]

Joe911 said:

Maybe I have the same problem with this that I have with 'Made in Chelsea' - the fact is I just don't get it. It's not a documentary, it's not made up, it's not real, it's badly done, young folk put the 'actors' on a pedestal ... but of all that - it's just not entertaining (to me).

.

OMG - this.... times several million...

[z4RRSchris]

the advertising industry is moving this way in general, its a great way to reach a huge target audience for a tiny ad spend compared to traditional routes.

Influences, be it Shmee with cars, the fitness models, watches, holidays, even flats these days. Influences are and will become the main source of advertising reach.

you may not get it, i don't. but in 10 years the social generation will have huge spending power.

(i don't think it works with super cars, no idea what they are doing)

[flemke]

lauda said:

flemke said:

I did think about whether to put the engine ahead of the Le Mans win. The engine is wonderful but at least to some extent it is, unlike the other factors, a hostage to technological progress. In 1992 it was extraordinary. In the intervening 25 years, however, there have been a few other wonderful NA engines produced. Maybe, or maybe not, the F1's engine is still in a class of its own, but Ferrari have produced a couple of V12s, and Porsche a V10, that are pretty special too.

Lexus had a pretty decent go at a V10 too.

I considered including that but thought I should not as I have no personal experience with it and know only what I have read.
I also thought of including the V8 in the 918 but, in that case, I was not sure whether I could differentiate between what the engine was doing and what the electric motors were doing!

[flemke]

z4RRSchris said:

the advertising industry is moving this way in general, its a great way to reach a huge target audience for a tiny ad spend compared to traditional routes.

Influences, be it Shmee with cars, the fitness models, watches, holidays, even flats these days. Influences are and will become the main source of advertising reach.

you may not get it, i don't. but in 10 years the social generation will have huge spending power.

(i don't think it works with super cars, no idea what they are doing)

It is uncertain who coined the phrase, "There's a fool born every minute", but it is certain that the phrase originated long before the first supercar did.

It is a regrettable fact of our times that increasing amounts of purchasing power have gravitated towards people who someday should be capable of making intelligent choices, but who aren't there yet.

[Dr Gitlin]

flemke said:

No. The book Driving Ambition, published in about 2000, covered much of the territory related to the design, construction, and racing history of the cars.
What it's like to live with the car has been covered pretty well, I daresay, in this thread and its predecessors.
Thus I think that most of what at least I would have to say is already available.

If a bunch of people were to say that they would like such a thing as you suggest, I might consider it. I don't think I would do it with evo, however. I helped them out about 10 years ago, which was fine, but nowadays I know almost none of the people there.

I'm always happy to run such a feature at Ars Technica.

[Vaud]

Dr Gitlin said:

I'm always happy to run such a feature at Ars Technica.

Off-topic, but I enjoy reading your articles.

[Silver Smudger]

Uncle Ron said:

hyphen said:

Anyone know why there aren't more cars with the F1 seating arrangement- is it copyrighted by McLaren?

Another reason for this is crash testing/safety. BP23 will be Show & Display only in the US due in part to the fact that the extended space between the passenger seats and dashboard will allow too much acceleration before meeting the airbag. Suspect anyone trying to build three seat layouts in higher volumes will struggle with this.

I'm not sure I follow the physics in this point?

Surely in an accident, when the vehicle hits something and decelerates rapidly, an unrestrained passenger would continue to move forwards at the previous speed of the vehicle, decelerating hardly at all, until impacting somewhere on the inside of the now stationary vehicle.

The distance travelled would not affect the speed of the passenger's impact, would it?

[lauda]

flemke said:

I considered including that but thought I should not as I have no personal experience with it and know only what I have read.
I also thought of including the V8 in the 918 but, in that case, I was not sure whether I could differentiate between what the engine was doing and what the electric motors were doing!

To be honest, the only personal experience I have is having heard one a few times. That was enough to convince me it was worth the price, even if my bank account is missing a few zeros on the balance for that to be a reality.

[Joe911]

Silver Smudger said:

I'm not sure I follow the physics in this point?

Surely in an accident, when the vehicle hits something and decelerates rapidly, an unrestrained passenger would continue to move forwards at the previous speed of the vehicle, decelerating hardly at all, until impacting somewhere on the inside of the now stationary vehicle.

The distance travelled would not affect the speed of the passenger's impact, would it?

Are air-bags just aimed at unrestrained passengers?
I had assumed that the idea of an air-bag is to prevent the occupant - particularly their head - continuing to travel forwards once the vehicle stopped suddenly - reducing the chances of snapped necks and chest compression from being strained against the belts.
So if the air-bag can't fill the gap between the dash and the occupant - there's not much point it being there.
I guess.

[Storer]

flemke said:

Storer said:

flemke said:

I think the things that make the F1 truly special are, in order of importance:

- central driving position,
- winning Le Mans outright,
- engine, and
- the project was led by the pre-eminent race car designer of his era, who applied holistic design and an attention to detail otherwise found only in Formula One cars.

Ironically I would have listed them exactly the other way round, as a non owner.

One might disagree as to the relative importance of certain historical events, but in no way should the engine be ranked above the central driving position!

Sitting in the centre of a vehicle is not unusual to me having had a lifetime of operating agricultural machinery. You get used to using door mirrors too.
The slightly forward position in an F1 may make it feel much more like a single seater/Le Mans car so maybe that is where the 'special' feeling comes from.

As I will never get to sit in one, let alone drive one, it is purely my perception.

[chris333]

TurboTerrific9 said:

flemke said:

chris333 said:

flemke said:

Yes, it was patented, although I believe the patent expired a year or two ago.

Beyond that, it is not really practical because you have to climb over a passenger seat in order to get into the driver's seat. Almost all "supercars" are fairly conventional and need to sell in the thousands in order to justify themselves financially to their manufacturers. The three-seat arrangement does not work in a marketplace that large.
In the realm of "hypercars" it could be argued that the marketplace is narrow enough to allow for something as specialised as the three-seat arrangement, but I think the problem there is that that same narrow marketplace is generally well-informed and no manufacturer wants to be seen to be copying an idea with which one of its main rivals has been uniquely associated for 25 years.

How much of the "aura" around the F1 do you think is due to the the 3 seat layout? Even if it was a conventional two-seat car, the details of its design, development and construction would make it a fabulous car. But the central driving position is always mentioned as being a really special thing.

I think the things that make the F1 truly special are, in order of importance:

- central driving position,
- winning Le Mans outright,
- engine, and
- the project was led by the pre-eminent race car designer of his era, who applied holistic design and an attention to detail otherwise found only in Formula One cars.

Personally I'd place the engine above the win at Le Mans

Gotta love PH...being able to trigger a discussion between two F1 owners. Truly special, thanks guys!

And let's have less pollution of this thread with the JWW stuff.