Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
cc8s said:
I'm still slightly at a loss for why a 20-30 year old car, which has probably been fawned over, regularly, by the factory, should need a 'restoration'.
The same owner paid for similar treatment for his Zonda S through Pagani.
I'm split because, yes, it is a money-no-object world, so why not make it pretty, but it will take away some of the originality (to a certain extent) and I suspect would be largely needless.
I think MSO wondered the same, but the customer is always right.The same owner paid for similar treatment for his Zonda S through Pagani.
I'm split because, yes, it is a money-no-object world, so why not make it pretty, but it will take away some of the originality (to a certain extent) and I suspect would be largely needless.
What I would say is that many F1s have in some way been altered from the original spec, whether that be in trimming, paint, upgraded air-con and radiators, radio, larger steering wheel, HDK, bigger wheels or something else. The bag tank gets changed as a matter of course. It has not seemed to affect the market value of the cars. In recent years most of the cars have been bought with the intention (not always carried out) of being driven and the new owner will make his own alterations. The engines, gearboxes and chassis were all produced by different companies and never had matching serial numbers; if you have a gearbox rebuild they normally will do an exchange and install a used replacement box rather than have you wait a long time while they repair your own. That long-tail (Davidoff) GTR was restored from the ground up and it's worth a lot more now than it would be if it had not been restored. There are a few F1s that still have next-to-no miles on them and are in original-but-25-years-old condition, but that does not have a major effect on value.
flemke said:
The cost of refurbishing that one was a small fraction of the cost of rebuilding this one:
I should hope so too!! Structural repairs will be on another level altogether - do you know if they actually replace the tub or carry out a bespoke repair (i.e. full structural analysis that can be validated against test data) in cases such as that? I’d imagine when some of the structural hardpoints on the tub are damaged it gets close to the crossover point of it being an economical repair..... then there’s the consideration of trying to maintain originality.t563sk1 said:
flemke said:
The cost of refurbishing that one was a small fraction of the cost of rebuilding this one:
I should hope so too!! Structural repairs will be on another level altogether - do you know if they actually replace the tub or carry out a bespoke repair (i.e. full structural analysis that can be validated against test data) in cases such as that? I’d imagine when some of the structural hardpoints on the tub are damaged it gets close to the crossover point of it being an economical repair..... then there’s the consideration of trying to maintain originality.flemke said:
WCZ said:
flemke said:
I think the sense of cheekiness comes from the fact that, when you're already making big sacrifices in order to build the world's fastest (in Vmax) production car, what is the point of bending the rules in order to get a measly couple of mph more? It already is what it is.
what are the big sacrifices of the chiron? I don't see anyIn order to achieve the high speeds:
- turbocharging,
- vastly more BHP than could be used in road driving,
- immense cooling demands,
- special tyres required the only purpose of which is to cope with the Vmax,
- compromised packaging because of the space consumed by the huge engine and all the radiators,
- 600 kgs more weight than should be necessary.
I don't agree either that the Bugatti have sacrifced anything in making the Chiron, for what it was develoeped for I think they have got the car spot on, as did McLaren with the F1.
SpeckledJim said:
t563sk1 said:
flemke said:
The cost of refurbishing that one was a small fraction of the cost of rebuilding this one:
I should hope so too!! Structural repairs will be on another level altogether - do you know if they actually replace the tub or carry out a bespoke repair (i.e. full structural analysis that can be validated against test data) in cases such as that? I’d imagine when some of the structural hardpoints on the tub are damaged it gets close to the crossover point of it being an economical repair..... then there’s the consideration of trying to maintain originality.The3rdDukeofB said:
Flemke,
You mentioned not so long ago the NSX. Another Boat that I missed alas 10 years ago
In earnest which car do you prefer to drive - the NSX or F1 ?
They are so chalk and cheese that it is hard to answer your question. You mentioned not so long ago the NSX. Another Boat that I missed alas 10 years ago
In earnest which car do you prefer to drive - the NSX or F1 ?
The F1 feels much more special, more involving, more demanding to drive. For an hour or two, or the theoretical last drive of one's life, the F1 would be the choice relative to both the NSX and anything else.
Saying that, for an all-day drive, or a week-long tour, I think it would have to be the NSX. The most I have driven in the F1 in a day was probably 700 miles, so it can be done, but by the end of the day one is pretty knackered from the level of the (euphonic) noise, the unassisted steering and brakes, and the need to be on one's guard at all times.
Furthermore, there is (at least for me) more stress inherent in driving the F1: if you get a puncture, nobody is going to have a replacement tyre available, or probably even have the ability (without getting in special tools) to remove a wheel. If you're going to stay overnight somewhere, how do you keep the car safe? Once the clutch starts perceptibly to go, you've got maybe a dozen miles before it becomes useless - what do you do then? All those considerations tend to push one towards driving the F1 in somewhat contained circumstances, within boundaries. There is no way that I would take an F1 on a "tour" around the Continent.
t563sk1 said:
flemke said:
The cost of refurbishing that one was a small fraction of the cost of rebuilding this one:
I should hope so too!! Structural repairs will be on another level altogether - do you know if they actually replace the tub or carry out a bespoke repair (i.e. full structural analysis that can be validated against test data) in cases such as that? I’d imagine when some of the structural hardpoints on the tub are damaged it gets close to the crossover point of it being an economical repair..... then there’s the consideration of trying to maintain originality.neil1jnr said:
flemke said:
WCZ said:
flemke said:
I think the sense of cheekiness comes from the fact that, when you're already making big sacrifices in order to build the world's fastest (in Vmax) production car, what is the point of bending the rules in order to get a measly couple of mph more? It already is what it is.
what are the big sacrifices of the chiron? I don't see anyIn order to achieve the high speeds:
- turbocharging,
- vastly more BHP than could be used in road driving,
- immense cooling demands,
- special tyres required the only purpose of which is to cope with the Vmax,
- compromised packaging because of the space consumed by the huge engine and all the radiators,
- 600 kgs more weight than should be necessary.
I don't agree either that the Bugatti have sacrifced anything in making the Chiron, for what it was develoeped for I think they have got the car spot on, as did McLaren with the F1.
flemke said:
They are so chalk and cheese that it is hard to answer your question.
The F1 feels much more special, more involving, more demanding to drive. For an hour or two, or the theoretical last drive of one's life, the F1 would be the choice relative to both the NSX and anything else.
Saying that, for an all-day drive, or a week-long tour, I think it would have to be the NSX. The most I have driven in the F1 in a day was probably 700 miles, so it can be done, but by the end of the day one is pretty knackered from the level of the (euphonic) noise, the unassisted steering and brakes, and the need to be on one's guard at all times.
Furthermore, there is (at least for me) more stress inherent in driving the F1: if you get a puncture, nobody is going to have a replacement tyre available, or probably even have the ability (without getting in special tools) to remove a wheel. If you're going to stay overnight somewhere, how do you keep the car safe? Once the clutch starts perceptibly to go, you've got maybe a dozen miles before it becomes useless - what do you do then? All those considerations tend to push one towards driving the F1 in somewhat contained circumstances, within boundaries. There is no way that I would take an F1 on a "tour" around the Continent.
How much of the latter part of your post would apply to any modern Hypercar? P1, LaFerrari et al. Overnight stops are a concern in anything costly. I suspect many hypercar owners would stay in nicer hotels as a rule with decent secure parking options.The F1 feels much more special, more involving, more demanding to drive. For an hour or two, or the theoretical last drive of one's life, the F1 would be the choice relative to both the NSX and anything else.
Saying that, for an all-day drive, or a week-long tour, I think it would have to be the NSX. The most I have driven in the F1 in a day was probably 700 miles, so it can be done, but by the end of the day one is pretty knackered from the level of the (euphonic) noise, the unassisted steering and brakes, and the need to be on one's guard at all times.
Furthermore, there is (at least for me) more stress inherent in driving the F1: if you get a puncture, nobody is going to have a replacement tyre available, or probably even have the ability (without getting in special tools) to remove a wheel. If you're going to stay overnight somewhere, how do you keep the car safe? Once the clutch starts perceptibly to go, you've got maybe a dozen miles before it becomes useless - what do you do then? All those considerations tend to push one towards driving the F1 in somewhat contained circumstances, within boundaries. There is no way that I would take an F1 on a "tour" around the Continent.
In fact I suspect 95% of tyre retailers in the UK wouldn't have a Near side Rear tyre for a 991 GT3RS in stock. I suspect most wouldn't even have a premium brand tyre for an 3 series if my experience is anything to go by!
The guy who bought Rowan Atkinsons car did drive it around parts of Europe. (unfortunately with a Yoo Tuber in the spare seat!) Granted he's very wealthy and has access to support most don't so maybe it's less of a risk of going wrong/stranded.
hondafanatic said:
SpeckledJim said:
t563sk1 said:
flemke said:
The cost of refurbishing that one was a small fraction of the cost of rebuilding this one:
I should hope so too!! Structural repairs will be on another level altogether - do you know if they actually replace the tub or carry out a bespoke repair (i.e. full structural analysis that can be validated against test data) in cases such as that? I’d imagine when some of the structural hardpoints on the tub are damaged it gets close to the crossover point of it being an economical repair..... then there’s the consideration of trying to maintain originality.There are not many underwriters who will deal with it, less because of the risk (averaged amongst the tens of thousands of other insured vehicle risks it would not be a big deal) and more because it is outside their business models and they cannot be bothered to think about it.
S1KRR said:
flemke said:
They are so chalk and cheese that it is hard to answer your question.
The F1 feels much more special, more involving, more demanding to drive. For an hour or two, or the theoretical last drive of one's life, the F1 would be the choice relative to both the NSX and anything else.
Saying that, for an all-day drive, or a week-long tour, I think it would have to be the NSX. The most I have driven in the F1 in a day was probably 700 miles, so it can be done, but by the end of the day one is pretty knackered from the level of the (euphonic) noise, the unassisted steering and brakes, and the need to be on one's guard at all times.
Furthermore, there is (at least for me) more stress inherent in driving the F1: if you get a puncture, nobody is going to have a replacement tyre available, or probably even have the ability (without getting in special tools) to remove a wheel. If you're going to stay overnight somewhere, how do you keep the car safe? Once the clutch starts perceptibly to go, you've got maybe a dozen miles before it becomes useless - what do you do then? All those considerations tend to push one towards driving the F1 in somewhat contained circumstances, within boundaries. There is no way that I would take an F1 on a "tour" around the Continent.
How much of the latter part of your post would apply to any modern Hypercar? P1, LaFerrari et al. Overnight stops are a concern in anything costly. I suspect many hypercar owners would stay in nicer hotels as a rule with decent secure parking options.The F1 feels much more special, more involving, more demanding to drive. For an hour or two, or the theoretical last drive of one's life, the F1 would be the choice relative to both the NSX and anything else.
Saying that, for an all-day drive, or a week-long tour, I think it would have to be the NSX. The most I have driven in the F1 in a day was probably 700 miles, so it can be done, but by the end of the day one is pretty knackered from the level of the (euphonic) noise, the unassisted steering and brakes, and the need to be on one's guard at all times.
Furthermore, there is (at least for me) more stress inherent in driving the F1: if you get a puncture, nobody is going to have a replacement tyre available, or probably even have the ability (without getting in special tools) to remove a wheel. If you're going to stay overnight somewhere, how do you keep the car safe? Once the clutch starts perceptibly to go, you've got maybe a dozen miles before it becomes useless - what do you do then? All those considerations tend to push one towards driving the F1 in somewhat contained circumstances, within boundaries. There is no way that I would take an F1 on a "tour" around the Continent.
In fact I suspect 95% of tyre retailers in the UK wouldn't have a Near side Rear tyre for a 991 GT3RS in stock. I suspect most wouldn't even have a premium brand tyre for an 3 series if my experience is anything to go by!
The guy who bought Rowan Atkinsons car did drive it around parts of Europe. (unfortunately with a Yoo Tuber in the spare seat!) Granted he's very wealthy and has access to support most don't so maybe it's less of a risk of going wrong/stranded.
As it happens, I had a rear tyre puncture on a 991 GT3 (not an RS but better) in a remote area of Wales. I got it plugged and 90 minutes later was on my way. An issue with the F1 is literally getting the wheel off in the first place.
flemke said:
cc8s said:
I'm still slightly at a loss for why a 20-30 year old car, which has probably been fawned over, regularly, by the factory, should need a 'restoration'.
The same owner paid for similar treatment for his Zonda S through Pagani.
I'm split because, yes, it is a money-no-object world, so why not make it pretty, but it will take away some of the originality (to a certain extent) and I suspect would be largely needless.
I think MSO wondered the same, but the customer is always right.The same owner paid for similar treatment for his Zonda S through Pagani.
I'm split because, yes, it is a money-no-object world, so why not make it pretty, but it will take away some of the originality (to a certain extent) and I suspect would be largely needless.
What I would say is that many F1s have in some way been altered from the original spec, whether that be in trimming, paint, upgraded air-con and radiators, radio, larger steering wheel, HDK, bigger wheels or something else. The bag tank gets changed as a matter of course. It has not seemed to affect the market value of the cars. In recent years most of the cars have been bought with the intention (not always carried out) of being driven and the new owner will make his own alterations. The engines, gearboxes and chassis were all produced by different companies and never had matching serial numbers; if you have a gearbox rebuild they normally will do an exchange and install a used replacement box rather than have you wait a long time while they repair your own. That long-tail (Davidoff) GTR was restored from the ground up and it's worth a lot more now than it would be if it had not been restored. There are a few F1s that still have next-to-no miles on them and are in original-but-25-years-old condition, but that does not have a major effect on value.
That's true about the originality of F1s. It is not like they are like Classic Ferraris! I wonder if they will go that way in future and the most original ones will see an up-take in value in future?
I gather that Mr Pagani has put in a lot of effort to try and buy back Zonda #003 because it is the earliest un-modified car (#001 being a crash test car that recently reappeared out of nowhere and #002 being the rolling prototype that has seen the development of almost every Pagani variant on it).
cc8s said:
flemke said:
cc8s said:
I'm still slightly at a loss for why a 20-30 year old car, which has probably been fawned over, regularly, by the factory, should need a 'restoration'.
The same owner paid for similar treatment for his Zonda S through Pagani.
I'm split because, yes, it is a money-no-object world, so why not make it pretty, but it will take away some of the originality (to a certain extent) and I suspect would be largely needless.
I think MSO wondered the same, but the customer is always right.The same owner paid for similar treatment for his Zonda S through Pagani.
I'm split because, yes, it is a money-no-object world, so why not make it pretty, but it will take away some of the originality (to a certain extent) and I suspect would be largely needless.
What I would say is that many F1s have in some way been altered from the original spec, whether that be in trimming, paint, upgraded air-con and radiators, radio, larger steering wheel, HDK, bigger wheels or something else. The bag tank gets changed as a matter of course. It has not seemed to affect the market value of the cars. In recent years most of the cars have been bought with the intention (not always carried out) of being driven and the new owner will make his own alterations. The engines, gearboxes and chassis were all produced by different companies and never had matching serial numbers; if you have a gearbox rebuild they normally will do an exchange and install a used replacement box rather than have you wait a long time while they repair your own. That long-tail (Davidoff) GTR was restored from the ground up and it's worth a lot more now than it would be if it had not been restored. There are a few F1s that still have next-to-no miles on them and are in original-but-25-years-old condition, but that does not have a major effect on value.
That's true about the originality of F1s. It is not like they are like Classic Ferraris! I wonder if they will go that way in future and the most original ones will see an up-take in value in future?
I gather that Mr Pagani has put in a lot of effort to try and buy back Zonda #003 because it is the earliest un-modified car (#001 being a crash test car that recently reappeared out of nowhere and #002 being the rolling prototype that has seen the development of almost every Pagani variant on it).
On the subject of "classic" Ferraris or anything else, at this point what is original, and what is originality worth? Gradually a car will deteriorate: paint fades, rubber hardens and cracks, ferrous metals corrode, aluminium oxidises, et al. Is "original" letting nature take its course, or keeping forever all the same parts but renewing them as well as practicable, or replacing the ones that are no longer safely usable with identical replacements? I think we would agree that "original" would not be replacing a part that that was on the car when it left the production line with a part of a different design or material, even if that change actually improved how the car worked, and despite the fact that a car is intended to be a practical device, a machine not a sculpture in a museum, and therefore why wouldn't you want to improve how that machine worked? Does it really make sense still to run those horrible Denloc tyres on a 959? But they're original!
Especially for racing cars with provenance, it was the question of the hammer that you inherited from your grandfather: over the years the handle was replaced four times and the head replaced twice, but it's still your grandfather's hammer, right? Unless a racing car competed in only one event, almost certainly it will have been changed from race to race. Speaking of McLaren F1s, the GTR that won Le Mans competed in only that race, but it's been repainted since then. Is it still original?
I don't have the answers to these questions, although I do think people can get carried away with the issue of originality. Then again, I think that when a car is put on permanent display in a museum it ceases to be a car.
cc8s said:
That is interesting about MSO. But if someone offered them big money, then I can see why they'd take it!
That's true about the originality of F1s. It is not like they are like Classic Ferraris! I wonder if they will go that way in future and the most original ones will see an up-take in value in future?
I gather that Mr Pagani has put in a lot of effort to try and buy back Zonda #003 because it is the earliest un-modified car (#001 being a crash test car that recently reappeared out of nowhere and #002 being the rolling prototype that has seen the development of almost every Pagani variant on it).
Isn't that Zonda the only original spec C12 left? All others having had at least some factory upgrades to later specs. That's true about the originality of F1s. It is not like they are like Classic Ferraris! I wonder if they will go that way in future and the most original ones will see an up-take in value in future?
I gather that Mr Pagani has put in a lot of effort to try and buy back Zonda #003 because it is the earliest un-modified car (#001 being a crash test car that recently reappeared out of nowhere and #002 being the rolling prototype that has seen the development of almost every Pagani variant on it).
Sway said:
cc8s said:
That is interesting about MSO. But if someone offered them big money, then I can see why they'd take it!
That's true about the originality of F1s. It is not like they are like Classic Ferraris! I wonder if they will go that way in future and the most original ones will see an up-take in value in future?
I gather that Mr Pagani has put in a lot of effort to try and buy back Zonda #003 because it is the earliest un-modified car (#001 being a crash test car that recently reappeared out of nowhere and #002 being the rolling prototype that has seen the development of almost every Pagani variant on it).
Isn't that Zonda the only original spec C12 left? All others having had at least some factory upgrades to later specs. That's true about the originality of F1s. It is not like they are like Classic Ferraris! I wonder if they will go that way in future and the most original ones will see an up-take in value in future?
I gather that Mr Pagani has put in a lot of effort to try and buy back Zonda #003 because it is the earliest un-modified car (#001 being a crash test car that recently reappeared out of nowhere and #002 being the rolling prototype that has seen the development of almost every Pagani variant on it).
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