Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

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cc8s

4,209 posts

202 months

Friday 13th September 2019
quotequote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Sway said:
cc8s said:
That is interesting about MSO. But if someone offered them big money, then I can see why they'd take it!

That's true about the originality of F1s. It is not like they are like Classic Ferraris! I wonder if they will go that way in future and the most original ones will see an up-take in value in future?

I gather that Mr Pagani has put in a lot of effort to try and buy back Zonda #003 because it is the earliest un-modified car (#001 being a crash test car that recently reappeared out of nowhere and #002 being the rolling prototype that has seen the development of almost every Pagani variant on it).
Isn't that Zonda the only original spec C12 left? All others having had at least some factory upgrades to later specs.
As far as I'm aware, owned by (or certainly used by) a Swiss lady.
I don't know if it's the only original one, but it is definitely the earliest.

I need to check my notes at home as I once listed all those Zondas that were either special editions or had been modified. It a significant percentage of them.

cc8s

4,209 posts

202 months

Friday 13th September 2019
quotequote all
flemke said:
cc8s said:
flemke said:
cc8s said:
I'm still slightly at a loss for why a 20-30 year old car, which has probably been fawned over, regularly, by the factory, should need a 'restoration'.

The same owner paid for similar treatment for his Zonda S through Pagani.

I'm split because, yes, it is a money-no-object world, so why not make it pretty, but it will take away some of the originality (to a certain extent) and I suspect would be largely needless.
I think MSO wondered the same, but the customer is always right.

What I would say is that many F1s have in some way been altered from the original spec, whether that be in trimming, paint, upgraded air-con and radiators, radio, larger steering wheel, HDK, bigger wheels or something else. The bag tank gets changed as a matter of course. It has not seemed to affect the market value of the cars. In recent years most of the cars have been bought with the intention (not always carried out) of being driven and the new owner will make his own alterations. The engines, gearboxes and chassis were all produced by different companies and never had matching serial numbers; if you have a gearbox rebuild they normally will do an exchange and install a used replacement box rather than have you wait a long time while they repair your own. That long-tail (Davidoff) GTR was restored from the ground up and it's worth a lot more now than it would be if it had not been restored. There are a few F1s that still have next-to-no miles on them and are in original-but-25-years-old condition, but that does not have a major effect on value.
That is interesting about MSO. But if someone offered them big money, then I can see why they'd take it!

That's true about the originality of F1s. It is not like they are like Classic Ferraris! I wonder if they will go that way in future and the most original ones will see an up-take in value in future?

I gather that Mr Pagani has put in a lot of effort to try and buy back Zonda #003 because it is the earliest un-modified car (#001 being a crash test car that recently reappeared out of nowhere and #002 being the rolling prototype that has seen the development of almost every Pagani variant on it).
I don't think it's even a question of being offered big money. I am sure they charge everyone the same rate. They have more than enough customer work as it is, so it's more a question of whether they choose to do the work, not whether they can be paid extra to do something they otherwise would decline to do.

On the subject of "classic" Ferraris or anything else, at this point what is original, and what is originality worth? Gradually a car will deteriorate: paint fades, rubber hardens and cracks, ferrous metals corrode, aluminium oxidises, et al. Is "original" letting nature take its course, or keeping forever all the same parts but renewing them as well as practicable, or replacing the ones that are no longer safely usable with identical replacements? I think we would agree that "original" would not be replacing a part that that was on the car when it left the production line with a part of a different design or material, even if that change actually improved how the car worked, and despite the fact that a car is intended to be a practical device, a machine not a sculpture in a museum, and therefore why wouldn't you want to improve how that machine worked? Does it really make sense still to run those horrible Denloc tyres on a 959? But they're original!

Especially for racing cars with provenance, it was the question of the hammer that you inherited from your grandfather: over the years the handle was replaced four times and the head replaced twice, but it's still your grandfather's hammer, right? Unless a racing car competed in only one event, almost certainly it will have been changed from race to race. Speaking of McLaren F1s, the GTR that won Le Mans competed in only that race, but it's been repainted since then. Is it still original? scratchchin

I don't have the answers to these questions, although I do think people can get carried away with the issue of originality. Then again, I think that when a car is put on permanent display in a museum it ceases to be a car.
It is the Ship of Theseus/Trigger's Broom paradox!

Much greater minds than mine have tried to tackle it (worth a read, as a starting point): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

I think I subscribe to the thought that any car faces a 'Gradual loss of identity', where it slowly departs from its originality. Add to that certain axioms I would choose (in no particular order):

- Almost no car would be 'original' and therefore it is a matter of degree of originality - some being close to being original and some being far departed.
- The reasonable expectation of a race car is different from a road car, and therefore they can be treated differently. e.g. a replaced engine in a racecar is par for the course, while a replaced engine in a road car is quite a big 'event' in its history; likewise with damaged panels.
- Certain consumables - brake pads, tyres, hoses, etc - can be excluded straight away as these will be replaced on any car that is maintained.
- Certain 'authorities' have set the bar for certain Marques. For example, 'numbers matching' with chassis and engine for Ferrari, and the four(five?) points on a Bugatti (I can never remember what they are - chassis, engine, gearbox...?). I am not sure that this is reasonable, mainly with race cars, where a car can sometimes perversely be considered as 'more original' if a Ferrari has a Classiche-certified brand new engine with matching numbers, rather than the period-replaced engine.
- Regarding modifications. I think that those done 'in period' (arbitrary phrase) are surely more 'valid' than those done later.
- This is all focusing on 'originality' but if originality is not the aim for the owner, then subtle modifications such as tyres, wheels, suspension, etc. - which enhance the driving experience, or correct an issue - surely are laudable, even more so if it is reversible. But they move the car a step away from originality, unless fully reversible.
- A colour change, would certainly take it away from 'original' and, IMO, this aspect of originality cannot be retrieved, but this is a smaller degree of originality as it does not fundamentally alter the mechanics of the car

From agreeing with the idea that cars face a 'Gradual loss of identity', it then grates with me to accelerate that process, through an unwarranted 'restoration' or modification that is outwith that necessitated by actual use (driving).

All of this is IMHO, and perhaps not very cohesive biggrin

Regarding the repainting of 01R, as I have mentioned above, I see that as a small step, but I have to ask: why was it repainted?

I have similar thoughts when I hear of cars like a 160 mile-on-the-clock Testarossa: that is barely a car but rather a piece of art. But that is probably another philosophical wormhole (does an object's identity come from its intended purpose or actual use?)...

S1KRR

12,548 posts

211 months

Friday 13th September 2019
quotequote all
flemke said:
To some extent yes, but the key differences are that the F1 is worth 10x as much and the F1 is 10x harder to drive. There is no way in this world that I would allow a third party to "valet park" the F1.

As it happens, I had a rear tyre puncture on a 991 GT3 (not an RS but better) in a remote area of Wales. I got it plugged and 90 minutes later was on my way. An issue with the F1 is literally getting the wheel off in the first place.
I get that you'll never have the torque wrench with you.



But surely you could carry, if not the enormous 3/4" drive torque wrench, then at least get hold of the suitable size socket (75mm?) and carry that in the car? (perhaps with a 3/4" to 1" and 3/4" to 1/2" adapter to cover all eventualities) . Since I would hope most tyre places will have a large enough torque wrench of their own.

After all, as you say GT3 has centre locks. And you could get that looked after smile



I drove a 991.1 GT3 a few years ago. Love them! When the revs hit 3-4K and it all gets noisy! Just glorious! Also felt like a Rockstar when I was sat at the lights in West London. And this one was just plain white, comfort package car biggrin

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Friday 13th September 2019
quotequote all
GetCarter said:
Interested in the T50 Flemke?

Only a few places left.
I consider Gordon a friend and I love the general idea of the car, but I would rather not comment further.

AlmostUseful

3,276 posts

199 months

Friday 13th September 2019
quotequote all
flemke said:
GetCarter said:
Interested in the T50 Flemke?

Only a few places left.
I consider Gordon a friend and I love the general idea of the car, but I would rather not comment further.
That’s interesting, for me I see it as a sort of continuation of the F1, and seeing as you’ve already got one of them you don’t need one of the new motors.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Saturday 14th September 2019
quotequote all
cc8s said:
It is the Ship of Theseus/Trigger's Broom paradox!

Much greater minds than mine have tried to tackle it (worth a read, as a starting point): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

I think I subscribe to the thought that any car faces a 'Gradual loss of identity', where it slowly departs from its originality. Add to that certain axioms I would choose (in no particular order):

- Almost no car would be 'original' and therefore it is a matter of degree of originality - some being close to being original and some being far departed.
- The reasonable expectation of a race car is different from a road car, and therefore they can be treated differently. e.g. a replaced engine in a racecar is par for the course, while a replaced engine in a road car is quite a big 'event' in its history; likewise with damaged panels.
- Certain consumables - brake pads, tyres, hoses, etc - can be excluded straight away as these will be replaced on any car that is maintained.
- Certain 'authorities' have set the bar for certain Marques. For example, 'numbers matching' with chassis and engine for Ferrari, and the four(five?) points on a Bugatti (I can never remember what they are - chassis, engine, gearbox...?). I am not sure that this is reasonable, mainly with race cars, where a car can sometimes perversely be considered as 'more original' if a Ferrari has a Classiche-certified brand new engine with matching numbers, rather than the period-replaced engine.
- Regarding modifications. I think that those done 'in period' (arbitrary phrase) are surely more 'valid' than those done later.
- This is all focusing on 'originality' but if originality is not the aim for the owner, then subtle modifications such as tyres, wheels, suspension, etc. - which enhance the driving experience, or correct an issue - surely are laudable, even more so if it is reversible. But they move the car a step away from originality, unless fully reversible.
- A colour change, would certainly take it away from 'original' and, IMO, this aspect of originality cannot be retrieved, but this is a smaller degree of originality as it does not fundamentally alter the mechanics of the car

From agreeing with the idea that cars face a 'Gradual loss of identity', it then grates with me to accelerate that process, through an unwarranted 'restoration' or modification that is outwith that necessitated by actual use (driving).

All of this is IMHO, and perhaps not very cohesive biggrin

Regarding the repainting of 01R, as I have mentioned above, I see that as a small step, but I have to ask: why was it repainted?

I have similar thoughts when I hear of cars like a 160 mile-on-the-clock Testarossa: that is barely a car but rather a piece of art. But that is probably another philosophical wormhole (does an object's identity come from its intended purpose or actual use?)...
All fair enough. For me an important, perhaps in a sense the most important, question is, "Why would one want to keep the thing as original as possible?"
If the thing is an artefact or art object, the factors of historical significance and what the artist intended are crucial. If a given car is not merely for display but instead a working machine, that changes how it should be treated.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Saturday 14th September 2019
quotequote all
S1KRR said:
flemke said:
To some extent yes, but the key differences are that the F1 is worth 10x as much and the F1 is 10x harder to drive. There is no way in this world that I would allow a third party to "valet park" the F1.

As it happens, I had a rear tyre puncture on a 991 GT3 (not an RS but better) in a remote area of Wales. I got it plugged and 90 minutes later was on my way. An issue with the F1 is literally getting the wheel off in the first place.
I get that you'll never have the torque wrench with you.



But surely you could carry, if not the enormous 3/4" drive torque wrench, then at least get hold of the suitable size socket (75mm?) and carry that in the car? (perhaps with a 3/4" to 1" and 3/4" to 1/2" adapter to cover all eventualities) . Since I would hope most tyre places will have a large enough torque wrench of their own.

After all, as you say GT3 has centre locks. And you could get that looked after smile



I drove a 991.1 GT3 a few years ago. Love them! When the revs hit 3-4K and it all gets noisy! Just glorious! Also felt like a Rockstar when I was sat at the lights in West London. And this one was just plain white, comfort package car biggrin
70mm, 1" drive. I usually carry one in the car, but considering the pains Gordon took to minimise the car's weight, toting around a 3kg lump of steel just in case you get a puncture always feels self-defeating.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Saturday 14th September 2019
quotequote all
AlmostUseful said:
flemke said:
GetCarter said:
Interested in the T50 Flemke?

Only a few places left.
I consider Gordon a friend and I love the general idea of the car, but I would rather not comment further.
That’s interesting, for me I see it as a sort of continuation of the F1, and seeing as you’ve already got one of them you don’t need one of the new motors.
That is a consideration. Another thing is how the car will look. Partly because of the economics of the car market in the 1990s, partly because of luck, no car looks like the F1 and yet the F1 still looks good. Chiron, Valkyrie, Project One, Koenigsegg...? scratchchin

thegreenhell

15,115 posts

218 months

Saturday 14th September 2019
quotequote all
flemke said:
70mm, 1" drive. I usually carry one in the car, but considering the pains Gordon took to minimise the car's weight, toting around a 3kg lump of steel just in case you get a puncture always feels self-defeating.
I'm surprised it's not titanium.

S1KRR

12,548 posts

211 months

Saturday 14th September 2019
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
flemke said:
70mm, 1" drive. I usually carry one in the car, but considering the pains Gordon took to minimise the car's weight, toting around a 3kg lump of steel just in case you get a puncture always feels self-defeating.
I'm surprised it's not titanium.
It's doing 600nm! I'm not surprised it's made of sterner stuff! biggrin

My weight fluctuates more than 3kg over 6 months, so I can't think it's affecting the handling too much. laugh


flemke said:
I consider Gordon a friend...
Do you have his scribble in your car? Always assumed it would be a nice detail to have Dennis, Murray and Ojjeh's on the car somewhere. As they were part of the original conversation in that airport lounge in 1988.

(For others info. The 4th man present, Creighton Brown, passed away some years ago)


Edited by S1KRR on Saturday 14th September 14:03

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Tuesday 17th September 2019
quotequote all
S1KRR said:
thegreenhell said:
flemke said:
70mm, 1" drive. I usually carry one in the car, but considering the pains Gordon took to minimise the car's weight, toting around a 3kg lump of steel just in case you get a puncture always feels self-defeating.
I'm surprised it's not titanium.
It's doing 600nm! I'm not surprised it's made of sterner stuff! biggrin

My weight fluctuates more than 3kg over 6 months, so I can't think it's affecting the handling too much. laugh


flemke said:
I consider Gordon a friend...
Do you have his scribble in your car? Always assumed it would be a nice detail to have Dennis, Murray and Ojjeh's on the car somewhere. As they were part of the original conversation in that airport lounge in 1988.

(For others info. The 4th man present, Creighton Brown, passed away some years ago)
No, I do not have Gordon's signature on the car. I am not into collecting autographs and, in any case, his signature along with others is in the Driver's Manual as standard.

F1natic

455 posts

55 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
Anyone have details of the IMechE paper by Steve Randle "Concept and design of the McLaren F1 suspension systems - IMechE paper C466/007/93" - I would like to read it but the nearest copy is in Canturbury university in the South Island of NZ.....

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
F1natic said:
Anyone have details of the IMechE paper by Steve Randle "Concept and design of the McLaren F1 suspension systems - IMechE paper C466/007/93" - I would like to read it but the nearest copy is in Canturbury university in the South Island of NZ.....
Should be available for download direct from IMechE.

I'm pretty sure I had a digital copy somewhere, but it would have been a number of years ago.

mark387mw

2,174 posts

266 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
F1natic said:
Anyone have details of the IMechE paper by Steve Randle "Concept and design of the McLaren F1 suspension systems - IMechE paper C466/007/93" - I would like to read it but the nearest copy is in Canturbury university in the South Island of NZ.....
There was talk and images earlier in the thread.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Is this what you want? Apparently peloton has a digital version.

hurstg01

2,909 posts

242 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
F1natic said:
Anyone have details of the IMechE paper by Steve Randle "Concept and design of the McLaren F1 suspension systems - IMechE paper C466/007/93" - I would like to read it but the nearest copy is in Canturbury university in the South Island of NZ.....
I think I have a printed copy, let me try to find it and scan it in... (?)

Petrus1983

8,522 posts

161 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
The last two replies are why I keep with PH - one person going back 2 years, another prepared to look around and scan something beer good work!

hurstg01

2,909 posts

242 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
hurstg01 said:
F1natic said:
Anyone have details of the IMechE paper by Steve Randle "Concept and design of the McLaren F1 suspension systems - IMechE paper C466/007/93" - I would like to read it but the nearest copy is in Canturbury university in the South Island of NZ.....
I think I have a printed copy, let me try to find it and scan it in... (?)
Petrus1983 said:
The last two replies are why I keep with PH - one person going back 2 years, another prepared to look around and scan something beer good work!
I’ll get this scanned tomorrow, work permitting


F1natic

455 posts

55 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
hurstg01 said:
I’ll get this scanned tomorrow, work permitting
Thanks very much! This a legendary thread for good reason.

bolidemichael

13,723 posts

200 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
Hi, I came across this thread and don't have the lifespan to browse three hundred plus pages, though am keen to know what goes on in this neck of PH. There are some very intriguing discussions (btw the essence of maintaining originality is the [i[spirit[/i] of the object, in this case Theseus' McLaren F1). Would someone care to offer me a brief overview of the contents... to date(!)?

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Thursday 26th September 2019
quotequote all
bolidemichael said:
Hi, I came across this thread and don't have the lifespan to browse three hundred plus pages, though am keen to know what goes on in this neck of PH. There are some very intriguing discussions (btw the essence of maintaining originality is the [i[spirit[/i] of the object, in this case Theseus' McLaren F1). Would someone care to offer me a brief overview of the contents... to date(!)?
300 pages? It's volume 5 - there's a few thousand pages to summarise!

I'll give it a go:

Muppet fraudster (not flemke) pretends to have a F1. Lots of interest, but becomes obvious the bloke is a catfish.

Flemke offered to open a thread about his experiences with his actual, real life F1.

It was smurf blue. Some liked it. Flemke is perhaps a little choosy when it comes to colours...

Then, lots of modifications. No Halfords wings unfortunately, but things like revised uprights, wheels with modern tyres, prototype brakes - proper stuff.

Along the way, lots of little side chats. Typefaces had a run of a month or so. As did racing liveries, other Mclaren F1s, bit of stuff about some other cars/projects, etc.

Car was involved in a crash. When repaired, Flemke finally had to actually pick a bloody colour!

Colour was picked.

Then little flairs were added - stripes and panels, even a little pinstriping.

P1, special edition MSO 650 series - came, were resprayed, went. The mighty Audi A2 remained resolute throughout.

Senna came along. Some people perhaps surprised it's remained, seeing as Flemke has perhaps shown a little consideration for the aesthetics of an object.

Lots of chat about F1s at auction, running costs, high level mirrors, Gordon Murray (crikey - nearly forgot the LCC Rocket, it's logo, etc.), lots of other things.

Generally, the answer to every question ever posed about the F1 resides in this little neck of PH.