Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
JxJ Jr. said:
flemke said:
S1KRR said:
jhoneyball said:
Worrying doesn't cover it!If I've read it correctly. This is a company desperately trying to raise money and having to take legal action against previous investors, who presumably, feel they are about to be shafted!
McLaren have now informed the 'Security Agent' (bank tasked with enforcing the terms of the original loan) that they wish to raise new money and for this they wish to do a sale/leaseback of their property (MTC and MPC) or to borrow by pledging the property and the heritage cars.
Of the current debt holders, a subset who appear to be mainly hedge funds and distressed debt buyers rather than the original investors from 2017, have challenged McLaren's freedom to do this. In reply, McLaren say that the property and heritage cars are not 'substantially all' of their assets and therefore the covenant would not be breached by any of the proposed transactions.
https://www.law360.com/transportation/articles/128...
Does anyone know how common it is for a borrower to be going to court to argue it's assets are unencumbered, rather than for the lenders to be going to court?
Additionally, although McLaren is listed as claimant and the trustee defendant, the purpose of the action is for the court to declare the proposed assets currently secured under existing borrowing can be sold/alternately secured. The trustee, although listed as 'defendant', is effectively claimant seeking permission from the court that it can do what McLaren is asking, before the event. This will give it comfort that it's not exposed to action on behalf of the debt holders if it gives McLaren permission to sell or otherwise secure the assets.
I'm not familiar enough with how it all fits together, however I imagine the risks if McLaren/security agent had not sought the declaration would be that a potential buyer or lender would be unwilling to buy or take disputed assets as security and/or the existing asset holders could have asked the court for an injunction preventing such, the timetable for which likely to be extended at a time when McLaren have a need for expediency.
I'm not familiar enough with how it all fits together, however I imagine the risks if McLaren/security agent had not sought the declaration would be that a potential buyer or lender would be unwilling to buy or take disputed assets as security and/or the existing asset holders could have asked the court for an injunction preventing such, the timetable for which likely to be extended at a time when McLaren have a need for expediency.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Additionally, although McLaren is listed as claimant and the trustee defendant, the purpose of the action is for the court to declare the proposed assets currently secured under existing borrowing can be sold/alternately secured. The trustee, although listed as 'defendant', is effectively claimant seeking permission from the court that it can do what McLaren is asking, before the event. This will give it comfort that it's not exposed to action on behalf of the debt holders if it gives McLaren permission to sell or otherwise secure the assets.
I'm not familiar enough with how it all fits together, however I imagine the risks if McLaren/security agent had not sought the declaration would be that a potential buyer or lender would be unwilling to buy or take disputed assets as security and/or the existing asset holders could have asked the court for an injunction preventing such, the timetable for which likely to be extended at a time when McLaren have a need for expediency.
Very well summarised. I'm not familiar enough with how it all fits together, however I imagine the risks if McLaren/security agent had not sought the declaration would be that a potential buyer or lender would be unwilling to buy or take disputed assets as security and/or the existing asset holders could have asked the court for an injunction preventing such, the timetable for which likely to be extended at a time when McLaren have a need for expediency.
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
In reality, what do we think the liklihood of McLaren going under is, both Road cars and F1?
Purely a guess I would saying Racing is fine. They have sponsors, they give value to sponsors by being on TV every other week (in normal times) They get prize money from F1. The cost cap is coming in soon.
Automotive. Going under? Maybe not, but few possible outcomes imo.
1) Being bought by another company (ala Lambo with Audi) But who would want to buy McLaren? It would need to be a big company. Probably European. That don't currently have a range of competitor products. Mercedes are out. VAG wouldn't. JLR via Tata have the money, but would they want to? My guess would be BMW actually. But there would be cuts to the way they work. Your fancy production centres would be phased out in favour of regular, cheaper, production lines.
On the Cayenne buying guide
Article said:
The Germans knew the score though. They knew that their range had to become much broader if Porsche buyers were to stay within the brand as their lives, priorities and needs changed.
You'd get diversification. Could in time result in some cross over. So you get a McLaren SUV based on the X5 (Like RSQ8 and Urus) Maybe a 4 door Panamera/Quattroporte/S8/S63 rival based on 7 series underpinning.2) Massive downsizing of the operation. Cut all the special editions. Do 3 cars. Have the 600LT, the 765LT and P1/Senna/Speedtail Hypercar range. Churn out cars to order only. no stockpiling, no sending cars to dealers who don't want them. Jack the prices up a bit as well.
3) They continue to burn through other peoples money until eventually a group of those investors do a takeover. And then potentially break it all up to sell it anyway.
Applied Technlogy. Who knows. Ive always thought of them as an extension of marketing "Look at how clever we are" How much revenue that generates I know not.
Edited by S1KRR on Wednesday 24th June 12:50
I imagine the car business needs to have proven concept of the business model to get outside investment and remain independent. Has it done that yet and is it likely to (if it continues the current strategy)? If not, are you going to find many suitors for that business?
I'm sure a McLaren F1 team could be sustainable going forward, but how much debt is it in as an entity in its own right or as joint liability with the group? How much is it reliant on group facilities (financial and infrastructure) to operate? How much value would you associate with the goodwill of the brand versus going it alone from scratch or even looking at an alternative such as Williams?
In going headlong into car manufacture McLaren may have inadvertantly strangled itself with its own 'lifeline'.
I'm sure a McLaren F1 team could be sustainable going forward, but how much debt is it in as an entity in its own right or as joint liability with the group? How much is it reliant on group facilities (financial and infrastructure) to operate? How much value would you associate with the goodwill of the brand versus going it alone from scratch or even looking at an alternative such as Williams?
In going headlong into car manufacture McLaren may have inadvertantly strangled itself with its own 'lifeline'.
S1KRR said:
.....My guess would be BMW actually. But there would be cuts to the way they work. Your fancy production centres would be phased out in favour of regular, cheaper, production lines.
You say that, but that isn't what BMW have done with Rolls Royce.Edited by S1KRR on Wednesday 24th June 12:50
ArgonautX said:
Of the bigger automotive brands I'd say only the Chinese might be interested in a company like McLaren. Western auto brands are all in on electrification, cutting CO2 and such. Not an environment for supercars.
They could take the Sports Direct model.Buy a troubled established 'prestige' brand for a song. Throw everything but the name away, cut the price and the quality, and dramatically ramp-up production.
Chinese-owned (and Chinese-built?) £40k electric McLarens bloody everywhere by 2030. Full of Volvo hardware?
Reportedly they've been approved a loan from a Bahraini bank (conveniently part owned by Mumtalakat who have a substantial McLaren holding), so they should be ok for the foreseeable.... perhaps the Bahrain connection will ensure they ride out this storm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53169648
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53169648
trackdemon said:
Reportedly they've been approved a loan from a Bahraini bank (conveniently part owned by Mumtalakat who have a substantial McLaren holding), so they should be ok for the foreseeable.... perhaps the Bahrain connection will ensure they ride out this storm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53169648
Loans in this situation worry me. Just sound like kicking the can down the road and hoping for the best!https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53169648
McLaren Automotive ultimately IMO need a complete new board of directors in to restructure the company and MAKE it profitable! If that means less models (including the numerous facetious limited editions) Fewer cars being built to help residuals. A renewed focus on reliability and helping the dealers FIX the cars that have multiple faults. So no cars going back and forwards to dealers because even the new parts fitted that fixed the faults fail again after X months.
EDIT
QUESTION TO FLEMKE
You've said that you've not driven the F1 in the last few months. I assume wherever it is, it's on a trickle charger/battery conditioner.
If you were to go to the car right now, what do you have to do before you can drive it again? Pump the tyres up probably, but any other F1 foibles that need to be addressed before start up.
I guess the question is. How does it like being not used for extended periods given most cars prefer to be used regularly
Edited by S1KRR on Sunday 28th June 15:41
I was also wondering about flat spots on the tires for a car in long term storage, I would expect that the car should be jacked up and supported on stands if it has softer compound performance rubber, or at least repositioned every few weeks on different points around the circumference?
F1natic said:
I was also wondering about flat spots on the tires for a car in long term storage, I would expect that the car should be jacked up and supported on stands if it has softer compound performance rubber, or at least repositioned every few weeks on different points around the circumference?
That's all well and good but AIUI in this case, as for many of us, the car is not in long term storage, it just happens that, the way life has turned out, the car hasn't been used for a while.F1natic said:
I was also wondering about flat spots on the tires for a car in long term storage, I would expect that the car should be jacked up and supported on stands if it has softer compound performance rubber, or at least repositioned every few weeks on different points around the circumference?
That'd bugger the suspension instead though, wouldn't it?I suppose if someone was to make wheels with metal tyres for storage you could put the car on those and then take the road wheels/tyres off the car and store them separately.
Probably easier to just move the car once every few weeks I'd have thought.
S1KRR said:
trackdemon said:
Reportedly they've been approved a loan from a Bahraini bank (conveniently part owned by Mumtalakat who have a substantial McLaren holding), so they should be ok for the foreseeable.... perhaps the Bahrain connection will ensure they ride out this storm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53169648
Loans in this situation worry me. Just sound like kicking the can down the road and hoping for the best!https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/53169648
McLaren Automotive ultimately IMO need a complete new board of directors in to restructure the company and MAKE it profitable! If that means less models (including the numerous facetious limited editions) Fewer cars being built to help residuals. A renewed focus on reliability and helping the dealers FIX the cars that have multiple faults. So no cars going back and forwards to dealers because even the new parts fitted that fixed the faults fail again after X months.
EDIT
QUESTION TO FLEMKE
You've said that you've not driven the F1 in the last few months. I assume wherever it is, it's on a trickle charger/battery conditioner.
If you were to go to the car right now, what do you have to do before you can drive it again? Pump the tyres up probably, but any other F1 foibles that need to be addressed before start up.
I guess the question is. How does it like being not used for extended periods given most cars prefer to be used regularly
I have never had real problems driving any car that has not been driven for a while (I am not talking decades, but say as long as a year). Although it will depend on the tyre construction, the tyre pressure, the air temperature when you start to drive, and the weight of the car, in my experience tyres will quickly return to round. Another issue can be condensation in the fuel tank. If you leave a car undriven for many years, all sorts of problems can develop (which is why it is a fallacy that an older car with super-low miles should be more valuable than one that has a reasonable mileage), but that applies to all cars, not only F1s.
n3il123 said:
Without wanting to start another thread but, Flemke is this "your" P1 P1 Ad
I think we all know it is 
Curious to how or why the rear engine cover / screen carries watermarks / blemishes / stains though.
I'd imagine they detail the bejesus out of a £1m car to sell it, so is that something that is hard to 'maintain'?
n3il123 said:
Without wanting to start another thread but, Flemke is this "your" P1 P1 Ad
I cannot get the video to work, but if you are referring to the P1 that has recently been for sale with I think Tom Hartley, yes, that was mine.I sold it because it was not road-legal in the place to which I expected to be moving. I sold it to a private individual on the basis that he would not sell it 'for at least two years'. Seven weeks later it was for sale on the internet....
The person who bought it from him, however, is a totally honourable chap whom I have got to know. He owned it for two years but recently decided to sell it. I don't know if he sold it to TH or it is being offered on SOR - that's none of my business. It's a very nice car.
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