Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[ArgonautX]

Speedtail review

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mclaren/speed...

Interesting to read about interior space, apparently if the driver is higher, there's not enough shoulder room for the passangers

[Don1]

ArgonautX said:

Speedtail review

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mclaren/speed...

Interesting to read about interior space, apparently if the driver is higher, there's not enough shoulder room for the passangers

Interesting. What performance issues, the piece mentions them, but doesn't expand.

[Sway]

Don1 said:

ArgonautX said:

Speedtail review

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mclaren/speed...

Interesting to read about interior space, apparently if the driver is higher, there's not enough shoulder room for the passangers

Interesting. What performance issues, the piece mentions them, but doesn't expand.

Reading between the lines, it sounds as though having such narrow tyres is a limiting factor for traction. Wonder if that leads to a frustrating experience at lower speeds?

I am surprised that they mention traction issues, yet also comment on how epic the brakes are...

[ArgonautX]

To me, there's absolutely nothing appealing about the Speedtail. I think values will plummet.

[TyrannosauRoss Lex]

ArgonautX said:

To me, there's absolutely nothing appealing about the Speedtail. I think values will plummet.

What do you mean by "plummet" exactly? I can't see them ever plummeting. The production numbers are very low for starters.

[SpeckledJim]

ArgonautX said:

To me, there's absolutely nothing appealing about the Speedtail. I think values will plummet.

To me, there's an awful lot that's appealing about the Speedtail. I think values will rocket.


(call it a draw?)

[ArgonautX]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

What do you mean by "plummet" exactly? I can't see them ever plummeting. The production numbers are very low for starters.

I think at over 2 million new + whatever options, there's a lot of space below to drop to. Even a drop of 10-15 percent could buy you a new 720S. We'll see. Neither the Senna nor P1 have done great in these few years since they've been on the market, and I think they were stronger products relative to the Speedtail.

[SpeckledJim]

The new hypercars, whether it's GMD, Lotus, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Koenigsegg, Mercedes, Hennessey, etc etc, etc are going to look and feel 80% the same as each other.

Speedtail looks completely unlike any of them. In my view it looks fantastic, but whether you like it or not, there's no denying the impact it will have in Casino Square compared to, say, an Evija.

And for passengers and drivers, it will feel completely unlike anything else to drive/be in. In the cabin layout and exterior styling it has 2 huge USPs over the other current options to dunk millions into a single car.

[Petrus1983]

ArgonautX said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

What do you mean by "plummet" exactly? I can't see them ever plummeting. The production numbers are very low for starters.

I think at over 2 million new + whatever options, there's a lot of space below to drop to. Even a drop of 10-15 percent could buy you a new 720S. We'll see. Neither the Senna nor P1 have done great in these few years since they've been on the market, and I think they were stronger products relative to the Speedtail.

Then there’s the question - will the owners care? Many of them will have super yachts, private jets etc - once you start renting out yachts for €1.5m a week not including fuel, food and tips ( https://camperandnicholsons.com/luxury-motor-yacht... ) then the fact the depreciation could have bought a 720S probably isn’t your biggest concern.

[flemke]

PushedDover said:

CBA to start a new thread, so thought a drop in to the general fodder and melting pot of Mclaren content this thread reads likes:

I happened to just look at P1's then Senna's on PH classified.

Not one of the cars for sale has 1,000 miles on it.

I can not honestly imagine how dreary that must be to drop that much money on a car that is supposedly the pinnacle of driving and yet put less than 1,000miles on it in multi years. I know 'some are collectors' (note the so XP P1 for sale with 353 miles) and in another thread it was laughed at how those that own the cars and not use / put on any mileage have the last laugh as the prices soar, but the prices of these low miles Sennas seem to not be lifting.

Own a £1m car. Never use it. How did we get to this place ?

This has been an issue with exotic cars for decades. Otherwise there would not be 959s, XJ220s, and F1s with only a couple of thousand, or fewer, miles on them after 25-30 years. An average of 5 miles a month?
What aggravated the phenomenon was the price bubble of a few years ago, when the values of so many not truly special cars rose rapidly but within that there developed a noticeable gap in values depending on mileage. That gap might be relevant in a car made a year previous: if you had to choose today between two examples built in 2019 that were identical except that one had 50 miles and the other had 50,000 miles, you'd prefer the first.
The funny thing is that, with older cars, a car that has been used properly and serviced properly will be physically better than one that has sat idle for 20 years. Most people who can afford to spend large sums on cars do not appreciate this, but it is the reality.

[flemke]

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

PushedDover said:

CBA to start a new thread, so thought a drop in to the general fodder and melting pot of Mclaren content this thread reads likes:

I happened to just look at P1's then Senna's on PH classified.

Not one of the cars for sale has 1,000 miles on it.

I can not honestly imagine how dreary that must be to drop that much money on a car that is supposedly the pinnacle of driving and yet put less than 1,000miles on it in multi years. I know 'some are collectors' (note the so XP P1 for sale with 353 miles) and in another thread it was laughed at how those that own the cars and not use / put on any mileage have the last laugh as the prices soar, but the prices of these low miles Sennas seem to not be lifting.

Own a £1m car. Never use it. How did we get to this place ?

I think it's fairly obvious there are numerous possibilities how this may arise, even if we ignore the "investment" option. Let's say one drives to work Monday to Friday, maybe the odd Saturday. Spend other time with the family, holidays away etc, the time to actually use a £1m hypercar is probably very limited. Let's say these people get 1 weekend every 2 months where they may have a free day to enjoy a car for a few hours and do 200 miles. Let's then assume these people have 4 or 5 other super cars. Call it 5 others, so 6 in total. One use every 2 months for 200 miles would be using 1 car per year, 200 miles a pop. I think that's a very reasonable picture.

Then you have the situation like Flemke where the car wasn't legal in the country he expected to move to and thus sold before using it much etc.

You are right to point out this practical limitation on how much one might drive one's non-essential cars, although these days a lot of exotic cars are bought with no intention of being driven more than a few miles regardless of the external circumstances.

[flemke]

PushedDover said:

I was only reading in another Mcl thread of someone using his 650 daily, and how he did a round trip of 700miles in comfort etc etc.

I just don't see it that even on arrival the Senna doesnt have an owner go and spank it a lot for the first 4-6 months as an object of affection. To go an hoon a hundred miles is nothing, never mind a run out to destination or similar for the sake of it.
I took my 911 to italy. Great fun. Went there stayed the night, watched an Opera in Verona, drove back the next day.

Thats ONE run out that has more miles than any of those Senna's. I think its speculators not owner drivers. And thats why the market is fked. a race to the bottom (as in lowest mileage) to try an create the optimum sale price over the next car.
Crackers. And surely leads to bigger problems of a car not being used, (see the thread of the guy looking to get in a Testarossa)

Sounds like an interesting story about the Testarossa. Would you mind posting a link? Cheers.

[flemke]

Sway said:

PushedDover said:

I was only reading in another Mcl thread of someone using his 650 daily, and how he did a round trip of 700miles in comfort etc etc.

I just don't see it that even on arrival the Senna doesnt have an owner go and spank it a lot for the first 4-6 months as an object of affection. To go an hoon a hundred miles is nothing, never mind a run out to destination or similar for the sake of it.
I took my 911 to italy. Great fun. Went there stayed the night, watched an Opera in Verona, drove back the next day.

Thats ONE run out that has more miles than any of those Senna's. I think its speculators not owner drivers. And thats why the market is fked. a race to the bottom (as in lowest mileage) to try an create the optimum sale price over the next car.
Crackers. And surely leads to bigger problems of a car not being used, (see the thread of the guy looking to get in a Testarossa)

Senna is perhaps a little different - it's first and foremost a track car, so the experience on a road trip may not be as good as say a "run of the mill" 650S or 720.

Almost certainly, a lot of Sennas were bought as investment pieces.

A "hoon" in these sorts of cars is a tricky thing, if you want to avoid losing license/jail.

Especially a spirited drive in the UK. The traffic density, road and road surface conditions, sight lines, and social and political negativity towards anyone's actually enjoying driving all make it difficult to enjoy a drive in a Senna or similar in the UK.

[jhoneyball]

flemke said:

Especially a spirited drive in the UK. The traffic density, road and road surface conditions, sight lines, and social and political negativity towards anyone's actually enjoying driving all make it difficult to enjoy a drive in a Senna or similar in the UK.

Precisely why i moved on from my 89 Xpack Vantage and Brunei Bentley RT -- just nowhere to use them sensibly any more. (and the aston was a performance relic from another era compared to the modern supercars)

Got 4 motorbikes now -- and my ducati panigale 1199s is more than enough thrills for me. Though my BMW K1300S is the continent crossing tool of choice.

[flemke]

PushedDover said:

Sway, all points acknowledged and agree with to the point.

Petrus - that is a good alternative viewpoint of course.
I see it slightly different withte Car, Senna in particular. It didnt 'win' in its mission and raison d'etre did it?
Invariably it will also be bettered in due course. Therefore is it really a 'collectors piece' ? Therefore, drive the blasted things ?

Where does the lack of use and resulting 'bad maintenance' over rule the 'keep miles off it because of perceived value.

Or - take to extremes and remove the fluids in the car, and the perishables?

What would you say were the mission and raison d'etre that the Senna failed to win?

[Petrus1983]

It’s strange as the Senna is a car that has grown on me more than any other in recent times.

[flemke]

cc8s said:

That is very interesting regarding RUF, reading between the lines.

I have to agree. I dropped by RUF last year and Alois was an absolute gentleman, greeting us as if we were good friends.

Regarding the Manthey GT3s, were they track/race cars or road cars? I may have asked that before but I don't recall the answer, if so.

For my comparison they were road cars. Olaf also spec'd and set up racing cars for me and they were absolutely flawless, but that is another story.
The thing is, Olaf likes a very sporty road car, suited to track days and the high quality rural roads of Germany. For my F1, he put in the springs that he liked, after which I went through three sets of progressively softer springs to get to what I liked, and what I liked was very close to the original factory spec.
I once asked him, if money were no object, what road car would he most like to have. He said it was a car that he built for a customer in about 2004. He started with a 996 shell, put in a fully adjustable, solid bush suspension, used a turbo engine that Olaf modified to produce at least 600 BHP, had no unnecessary conveniences that added weight, and the carbon body (apart from the factory shell) included a super-aggressive bumper/splitter arrangement in front and this big whale-tail at the back topped by a large wing. It was a barely street-legal version of his VLN car that year, which was by far the fastest car in the series.
My point is that that is Olaf's mentality, and it was reflected in what he recommended to his clients. Olaf is exceptional; I have so much respect and affection for the man.

[flemke]

cc8s said:

Petrus1983 said:

PushedDover said:

CBA to start a new thread, so thought a drop in to the general fodder and melting pot of Mclaren content this thread reads likes:

I happened to just look at P1's then Senna's on PH classified.

Not one of the cars for sale has 1,000 miles on it.

I can not honestly imagine how dreary that must be to drop that much money on a car that is supposedly the pinnacle of driving and yet put less than 1,000miles on it in multi years. I know 'some are collectors' (note the so XP P1 for sale with 353 miles) and in another thread it was laughed at how those that own the cars and not use / put on any mileage have the last laugh as the prices soar, but the prices of these low miles Sennas seem to not be lifting.

Own a £1m car. Never use it. How did we get to this place ?

I think it depends on a lot of things. I collect art to a small degree - I’d rather cars but art takes up a lot less space and causes far fewer problems. At any one time I’ll have around 25% of what I own on the wall. It would be nice to have more up, but unfeasible for one reason or another - it doesn’t mean I don’t want to see them, or not want to own them. As a result I know I have a range of Banksy’s, Hirsts, Basquiats etc that I know many people would have as pride of place in their homes, in storage. Whilst I don’t see them often I still enjoy knowing I have the option of hanging it up sometime.

Senna values are interesting. I gather that all depositors were locked in before the car was unveiled. And, as almost certainly discussed here, a number of people took exception to the looks and wanted to off-load the cars. A number did so at MSRP so as to not appear to be flippers, and retain their buying credibility with their dealership/the factory. This naturally depressed the market. This in a generally softening market at the time.

I do not understand, in that circumstance, knowing that a number of people will want to get in and out of the car with at least no loss, why they don't use them more. Where does the banding sit for drops in value? Surely a well-specced car would balance against marginally higher mileage car.

IIRC, it was possible to have one's deposit returned after the unveiling held at MTC in December of some year (2017?) There definitely was some shifting around between people who disliked the aggressive looks and others who found them quite appealing.

[flemke]

ArgonautX said:

To me, there's absolutely nothing appealing about the Speedtail. I think values will plummet.

I'm not sure about that. It's a very specific object to possess and some people will want to possess them. I am bound to say that it looks far better in the dark colour than in light colours such as the silver display car.
It was always going to be a car to have and show off rather than a car to drive and there is a market for such things.

[flemke]

ArgonautX said:

TyrannosauRoss Lex said:

What do you mean by "plummet" exactly? I can't see them ever plummeting. The production numbers are very low for starters.

I think at over 2 million new + whatever options, there's a lot of space below to drop to. Even a drop of 10-15 percent could buy you a new 720S. We'll see. Neither the Senna nor P1 have done great in these few years since they've been on the market, and I think they were stronger products relative to the Speedtail.

Ironically, the P1 and Senna are both driver's cars and the Speedtail is not. A production run of only 106 will however compensate for lack of success by other criteria.