Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[raftom]

lauda said:

trackdemon said:

Is it about time someone ruined the thread by posting this?

http://www.nbc.com/jay-lenos-garage/photos/mclaren...

I can imagine it's appearance will be a bit divisive....

Crikey, that's...striking. I quite like the fact that you can see a lot the 'guts' at the back but the rear spoiler and exhausts are comedically over-sized.

I like it, except for the front wheel arches that look awkward with the skinny tires.

[gwm]

Bit of a left field question for you.

You talk a lot about some very technical subjects, so clearly have more than a passing interest in technical matters concerning your car. Is this something you have had to pursue due to the bespoke modifications to your F1? Or only knowledge you have picked up along the way? How many times have you been told what you want isn't technically possible, before achieving it anyway? (and of course the snake-oil selling opposite)

[BugLebowski]

Ahaha I thought that this thread was a parody to start with, I'm amazed that it's actually serious.

[pad58]

BugLebowski said:

Ahaha I thought that this thread was a parody to start with, I'm amazed that it's actually serious.

Welcome to PH.

[flemke]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Flemke,

Carbon brakes.

I understand the benefits for race cars, but I've always had some nagging doubts about whether they are beneficial on the road. I'm interested to see that you've had matching metal discs made up, presumably so that they're interchangeable with the carbon brakes.

Is it your intention to run carbon brakes on track and metal brakes on the road?

Setting aside the heat & balance issues you described earlier, can you give a description of the different characteristics of carbon v metal brakes? Initial bite? Feel? Fade? Ability to modulate at high and low speeds?

We've all read road tests of high performance cars with carbon brakes and of cars with metal brakes, but I don't recall ever reading a test of the same car fitted with both types of brakes for comparison.

The advantage of carbon-carbon discs is unsprung weight. Carbon-ceramic discs, as found today on many road cars, weigh half as much as iron discs. Carbon-carbon discs weigh half as much as carbon-ceramic. In the case of the F1, the difference between iron and carbon-carbon is roughly 5 kg/corner; again, that is unsprung. That weight savings improves acceleration, damping control and grip, steering, and braking.

Another issue with carbon-ceramic is that you need a servo. With the carbon-carbon that I am using, as treated, no servo is necessary. I would very much prefer not to put a brake servo on the F1.

I don't track the F1. The carbon-carbon discs would be for the road.

In terms of driving w iron v driving w carbon-carbon, the carbon-carbon when warm have more initial bite.

They don't fade, although, if you get them hot enough, you may melt the caliper seals or eventually burn up the discs. Even approaching a similar temperature, the CoF of iron would have dropped into uselessness.

Feel- and feedback-wise, iron is pretty much always better.

You may recall about 15 years ago when Alex Zanardi was driving in Formula One for Williams, and he tried hard to persuade the team to allow him to run iron discs, because of the better feel (and he was accustomed to them from his Indy days). In the end, the Williams engineers won the argument: the advantage of reduced unsprung weight was too great to be foregone.

Looking forward, I am not entirely certain that the carbon-carbon will be the better choice. The guys who have developed the system assure me that they can sort it, but ultimately practice trumps theory, especially in matters of safety.

[flemke]

Mjunkie said:

flemke said:

I "need" a disc size that is available in both iron and carbon-carbon. In turn, that dictates the dimensions of the uprights. I need calipers that are designed to work with both iron and carbon-carbon. To use a different size disc at the rear would require different uprights and different calipers. Even if the right calipers were available, I am not all that keen to have to have new uprights made up, buy new calipers, etc.
Then we have the fact that you can't buy carbon-carbon discs in any old size. Indeed, it took some work to persuade Carbon Industrie to supply me with any discs at all for a road car. You can have a larger disc machined down to size, but that is more hassle.

I think we'll get this sorted. Worst case, we can augment the front brake cooling, but the guys advising me don't expect that to be necessary.

Has your car already had a set of custom uprights made up for the AP calipers? What are they made of? I read an amazing article of a guy restoring a f40lm and he had some made in something call Avonil (i think).

Also has yours had different suspension? I was reading an interview from Gordon Murray that his XP car had the LM suspension and sports exhaust.

Drove an M3 CSL a few months ago and all I think is "half an f1 engine!" Stupid boy!

Again, thankyou for taking the time to answer.

I have had new uprights made, yes. They are whatever aluminium alloy the foundry recommended.

My car has had the same suspension as on Gordon's car (standard except for stiffer ARB, stiffer springs, and 2-way adjustable dampers), which is better than pure standard (of which there were actually two versions), but now it has, if you will, "its own" suspension, with a lot of new parts which have been made up for it.

Wrt the exhaust, I am not sure which exhaust Gordon's car has, because, in addition to the "standard" exhaust, the factory offered two stages of "sports" exhaust, plus a further option of straight-through pipes.

[flemke]

alecmets2011 said:

Children please stop fighting.


Flemke, what do you plan on changing after the brakes are completed? Or by that point will the car meet all of your standards?

I need to sort out the interior, as I made a mistake in spec-ing the blue fabric in the centres of the seats. I'll try to get to it later this year.

I may dispense with the squiggle on the bonnet. I still like the idea of a squiggle, or some alternative pinstriping, but I'm not entirely happy with what is there at present.

The factory now offer a titanium exhaust option. I await some of the details on that, which I may have installed when next the car is serviced.

The above is all fairly minor. The focus in on resolving the brakes. Once that is done, I should calm down.

[flemke]

gwm said:

Bit of a left field question for you.

You talk a lot about some very technical subjects, so clearly have more than a passing interest in technical matters concerning your car. Is this something you have had to pursue due to the bespoke modifications to your F1? Or only knowledge you have picked up along the way? How many times have you been told what you want isn't technically possible, before achieving it anyway? (and of course the snake-oil selling opposite)

I don't really know anything technical about cars. What happened was that I thought that in two important areas, braking and handling, the car ought to be improved. I asked McLaren if they would help me in addressing those issues, and in effect they would/could not do so. That forced me to search for people who had the expertise to help me.
There was and is nobody out there with a "McLaren F1 Improvement Service". This meant that I had to be the project's general contractor, so to speak. Over the last 11 years, I have had to liaise with, I guess, 15-20 consultants and factories, regarding brakes, bushes, wheels, tyres, etc. They're the ones with the knowledge, although it has fallen to me to make the decisions and coordinate the work. In the process, I have picked up a few bits and pieces of information.

[R_U_LOCAL]

flemke said:

The advantage of carbon-carbon discs is unsprung weight. Carbon-ceramic discs, as found today on many road cars, weigh half as much as iron discs. Carbon-carbon discs weigh half as much as carbon-ceramic. In the case of the F1, the difference between iron and carbon-carbon is roughly 5 kg/corner; again, that is unsprung. That weight savings improves acceleration, damping control and grip, steering, and braking.

Another issue with carbon-ceramic is that you need a servo. With the carbon-carbon that I am using, as treated, no servo is necessary. I would very much prefer not to put a brake servo on the F1.

I don't track the F1. The carbon-carbon discs would be for the road.

In terms of driving w iron v driving w carbon-carbon, the carbon-carbon when warm have more initial bite.

They don't fade, although, if you get them hot enough, you may melt the caliper seals or eventually burn up the discs. Even approaching a similar temperature, the CoF of iron would have dropped into uselessness.

Feel- and feedback-wise, iron is pretty much always better.

You may recall about 15 years ago when Alex Zanardi was driving in Formula One for Williams, and he tried hard to persuade the team to allow him to run iron discs, because of the better feel (and he was accustomed to them from his Indy days). In the end, the Williams engineers won the argument: the advantage of reduced unsprung weight was too great to be foregone.

Looking forward, I am not entirely certain that the carbon-carbon will be the better choice. The guys who have developed the system assure me that they can sort it, but ultimately practice trumps theory, especially in matters of safety.

Interestng - thank you.

There is a huge difference between the way brakes are generally used on the road and how they are used on track. It's extremely rare that a driver, even in a fast car and even if they are really pressing on, will be using threshold braking anywhere near as much on the road as they would be on track.

I know from previous posts that you've had some advanced road instruction, which will (if your instructor was any good!) have included plenty of input on acceleration sense and smooth use of the brakes.

If you're solely using the F1 on the road, do the advantages of unsprung weight outweigh the disadvantages of a loss of feel and feedback?

[flemke]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Interestng - thank you.

There is a huge difference between the way brakes are generally used on the road and how they are used on track. It's extremely rare that a driver, even in a fast car and even if they are really pressing on, will be using threshold braking anywhere near as much on the road as they would be on track.

I know from previous posts that you've had some advanced road instruction, which will (if your instructor was any good!) have included plenty of input on acceleration sense and smooth use of the brakes.

If you're solely using the F1 on the road, do the advantages of unsprung weight outweigh the disadvantages of a loss of feel and feedback?

You raise a good question.

As you suggest, threshold braking on the road is rarely necessary. Fade should not be an issue, unless one is say descending a great Pyrenean slope in July, which I would not often do, at least not in an F1.

On the road I prob use the brakes less than the average driver and car would do. That is partly because one tries to plan ahead, which in itself can reduce greatly the need for braking. In addition, the F1 has quite a lot of engine braking to help with the job.

On the other hand, the alternative of iron discs in the "proper" size means that one is adding unsprung weight (relative to standard). Although my new wheels are no heavier (I think in fact are slightly lighter) than the 17" originals, as I mentioned above the new, modern tyres are definitely heavier than the F1's gossamer-like original tyres.

These weight increases are proportionately greater on the rear than on the front. Nonetheless, there is some increase on the front, and, in addition to the reduction in objective performance that comes with heavier brake discs and tyres, there is a reduction in the quality of the steering.

I love good brake feel, but I also love good steering feel. In driving, I might be using the brakes 2% of the time, but I am using the steering 100% of the time, and, of the two, the steering is the more important to me. Also, as a reference point, the F1's standard brakes have poor feel and feedback: even carbon-carbon is superior to them, although not superior to my new iron set-up.

Where these trade-offs have led me is to the conclusion that, if we can get the carbon-carbon system working as I think it could do, I'll give up some potential braking feel in return for improvements in steering feel, damper control and grip, and acceleration, plus the theoretical advantage of reduced fade (which, like a car with a top speed of 200+, is probably unnecessary and indeed is unlikely ever to be used, but still it's nice to know it's there. ).

Cheers.

[Jacobyte]

flemke said:

The factory now offer a titanium exhaust option. I await some of the details on that, which I may have installed when next the car is serviced.

Have you considered inconel?

[HereBeMonsters]

flemke said:

I may dispense with the squiggle on the bonnet. I still like the idea of a squiggle, or some alternative pinstriping, but I'm not entirely happy with what is there at present.

Oh thank God, I thought we were getting a bit "Emperor's New Clothes" on that particular detail. It really does remind me of a tramp stamp tattoo.

[thegreenhell]

Jacobyte said:

flemke said:

The factory now offer a titanium exhaust option. I await some of the details on that, which I may have installed when next the car is serviced.

Have you considered inconel?

I thought the standard manifolds were already inconel? I would guess that the titanium option would just be for the silencers and tails, something like this aftermarket system:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...

[Jacobyte]

thegreenhell said:

I thought the standard manifolds were already inconel? I would guess that the titanium option would just be for the silencers and tails, something like this aftermarket system:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...

I didn't know the manifolds were made with inconel - must read my copy of Driving Ambition properly at some point

Titanium, whilst a bit lighter than inconel, is prone to warping and cracking when subjected to variable temperatures. Inconel toughens up as it gets hotter (which makes it hard to work with in the first place but the end result is very stable with excellent longevity).

[flemke]

thegreenhell said:

Jacobyte said:

flemke said:

The factory now offer a titanium exhaust option. I await some of the details on that, which I may have installed when next the car is serviced.

Have you considered inconel?

I thought the standard manifolds were already inconel? I would guess that the titanium option would just be for the silencers and tails, something like this aftermarket system:

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...

This is why I am awaiting further details. If there is not a meaningful weight reduction, there would be no point.

[flemke]

HereBeMonsters said:

flemke said:

I may dispense with the squiggle on the bonnet. I still like the idea of a squiggle, or some alternative pinstriping, but I'm not entirely happy with what is there at present.

Oh thank God, I thought we were getting a bit "Emperor's New Clothes" on that particular detail. It really does remind me of a tramp stamp tattoo.

Again, I have not given up entirely on the idea, but the way it was done on my car was not a success.

Pinstriping can be good. This is quality:



Something like this could be good on the F1:

[g3org3y]

flemke said:

Something like this could be good on the F1:

Looks like the kind of thing girls in Essex have tattooed on their lower back.

[flemke]

g3org3y said:

flemke said:

Something like this could be good on the F1:

Looks like the kind of thing girls in Essex have tattooed on their lower back.

Having seen not many, if any, Essex girls' lower backs, I could not say.

If there is a resemblance, are you sure that these sophisticated, sensitive ladies have not simply been inspired by examples of great pinstriping?

[HereBeMonsters]

flemke said:

HereBeMonsters said:

flemke said:

I may dispense with the squiggle on the bonnet. I still like the idea of a squiggle, or some alternative pinstriping, but I'm not entirely happy with what is there at present.

Oh thank God, I thought we were getting a bit "Emperor's New Clothes" on that particular detail. It really does remind me of a tramp stamp tattoo.

Again, I have not given up entirely on the idea, but the way it was done on my car was not a success.

Pinstriping can be good. This is quality:

Oh yes, pinstriping that picks out a line or a detail can be fabulous. In fact, as a fan of it myself, I took these photos on a recent visit to Beaulieu:


(reflections of the roof, not dirt on the fender)





I'm yet to be convinced on the standalone swirls etc., but hey, it's not my car!

[flemke]

HereBeMonsters said:

Oh yes, pinstriping that picks out a line or a detail can be fabulous. In fact, as a fan of it myself, I took these photos on a recent visit to Beaulieu:

At least we are in agreement on the principle.