Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

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Discussion

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
The new hypercars, whether it's GMD, Lotus, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Koenigsegg, Mercedes, Hennessey, etc etc, etc are going to look and feel 80% the same as each other.

Speedtail looks completely unlike any of them. In my view it looks fantastic, but whether you like it or not, there's no denying the impact it will have in Casino Square compared to, say, an Evija.

And for passengers and drivers, it will feel completely unlike anything else to drive/be in. In the cabin layout and exterior styling it has 2 huge USPs over the other current options to dunk millions into a single car.
I would agree with all your examples bar Gordon's T.50. Incredible normally-aspirated engine, manual 'box, central driving position, exceptionally light weight, more storage space than the Speedtail, good-looking - it will be different from the rest.

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
T.50 is the first car I've been genuinely excited about in a depressingly long while...

Can't wait to see it at FoS in the hopefully not too distant future.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
jhoneyball said:
flemke said:
Especially a spirited drive in the UK. The traffic density, road and road surface conditions, sight lines, and social and political negativity towards anyone's actually enjoying driving all make it difficult to enjoy a drive in a Senna or similar in the UK.
Precisely why i moved on from my 89 Xpack Vantage and Brunei Bentley RT -- just nowhere to use them sensibly any more. (and the aston was a performance relic from another era compared to the modern supercars)

Got 4 motorbikes now -- and my ducati panigale 1199s is more than enough thrills for me. Though my BMW K1300S is the continent crossing tool of choice.
I hear you. I decided a few years ago that I was too old ever to become a decent motorbike rider and thus it would be stupid for me to try.
Although in some ways even less practical than a bike, the Rocket is a good example of a car that can be enjoyed at speeds that are neither illegal nor anti-social. smile

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
Petrus1983 said:
It’s strange as the Senna is a car that has grown on me more than any other in recent times.
They don't look as bad as they did, eh?
The biggest aesthetic problem however remains that 'cliff-edge' running at an angle from the base of the A-pillar along the bonnet all the way down to the splitter. Yes, it serves a function, just as every hideous body part on a modern Formula One car serves a function, but boy is it ugly!

ArgonautX

157 posts

50 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
flemke said:
Ironically, the P1 and Senna are both driver's cars and the Speedtail is not. A production run of only 106 will however compensate for lack of success by other criteria.
Just because it's rare doesn't have to mean it's desireable.
It does absolutely nothing for me.
For 2 million+ I'm sure it would be possible to commission a custom build at MSO, based on 720S or LT.

TyrannosauRoss Lex

34,947 posts

211 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
Sway said:
T.50 is the first car I've been genuinely excited about in a depressingly long while...

Can't wait to see it at FoS in the hopefully not too distant future.
More so than the Valkyrie? Both seem pretty similar in many regards.

ArgonautX

157 posts

50 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
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TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
More so than the Valkyrie? Both seem pretty similar in many regards.
Valkyrie is a track toy, at best. Difficult to get in and get out, single clutch gearbox, probably noisy, cramped...
They should build a road focused car with a detuned Valkyrie engine.

PushedDover

5,623 posts

52 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
flemke said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
PushedDover said:
CBA to start a new thread, so thought a drop in to the general fodder and melting pot of Mclaren content this thread reads likes:

I happened to just look at P1's then Senna's on PH classified.

Not one of the cars for sale has 1,000 miles on it.

I can not honestly imagine how dreary that must be to drop that much money on a car that is supposedly the pinnacle of driving and yet put less than 1,000miles on it in multi years. I know 'some are collectors' (note the so XP P1 for sale with 353 miles) and in another thread it was laughed at how those that own the cars and not use / put on any mileage have the last laugh as the prices soar, but the prices of these low miles Sennas seem to not be lifting.

Own a £1m car. Never use it. How did we get to this place ?
I think it's fairly obvious there are numerous possibilities how this may arise, even if we ignore the "investment" option. Let's say one drives to work Monday to Friday, maybe the odd Saturday. Spend other time with the family, holidays away etc, the time to actually use a £1m hypercar is probably very limited. Let's say these people get 1 weekend every 2 months where they may have a free day to enjoy a car for a few hours and do 200 miles. Let's then assume these people have 4 or 5 other super cars. Call it 5 others, so 6 in total. One use every 2 months for 200 miles would be using 1 car per year, 200 miles a pop. I think that's a very reasonable picture.

Then you have the situation like Flemke where the car wasn't legal in the country he expected to move to and thus sold before using it much etc.
You are right to point out this practical limitation on how much one might drive one's non-essential cars, although these days a lot of exotic cars are bought with no intention of being driven more than a few miles regardless of the external circumstances.
This is the sad part to my original comment on the 'subject'. I suspect it must also slightly grate the engineers, designers and all involved to create what they are told / tasked to be the ultimate (in that sector / time and space) for someone to buy it to park it.
May as well be a mule.

flemke said:
PushedDover said:
Sway, all points acknowledged and agree with to the point.

Petrus - that is a good alternative viewpoint of course.
I see it slightly different withte Car, Senna in particular. It didnt 'win' in its mission and raison d'etre did it?
Invariably it will also be bettered in due course. Therefore is it really a 'collectors piece' ? Therefore, drive the blasted things ?

Where does the lack of use and resulting 'bad maintenance' over rule the 'keep miles off it because of perceived value.

Or - take to extremes and remove the fluids in the car, and the perishables?
What would you say were the mission and raison d'etre that the Senna failed to win? scratchchin
paperbag I 'think' it was well received as a tremendous thing on the track.
But not on the Road.

Therefore what was the point of it as a Road legal car.



You could go faster and better on the track with a car without a plate and all the money saved would buy a great road car (that could possibly even said the said track car to the track ?

Edited by PushedDover on Wednesday 15th July 17:22

PushedDover

5,623 posts

52 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
flemke said:
Sounds like an interesting story about the Testarossa. Would you mind posting a link? Cheers.
it was this thread, giving some interesting insights :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

smile

Sway

26,070 posts

193 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
Sway said:
T.50 is the first car I've been genuinely excited about in a depressingly long while...

Can't wait to see it at FoS in the hopefully not too distant future.
More so than the Valkyrie? Both seem pretty similar in many regards.
Valkyrie is impressive, but ultimately I think will be hugely flawed as a road car whereas T.50 I understand will be a superb one.

One thing I can't stand is the ever increasing footprint of cars in general. The width alone of the Valkyrie puts me off it.

One of the famous video tests of the F1 is on roads I'm very familiar with, and there's zero chance many if any modern hypercars could make much progress down that road without oncoming traffic pulling over!

TyrannosauRoss Lex

34,947 posts

211 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
quotequote all
PushedDover said:
flemke said:
TyrannosauRoss Lex said:
PushedDover said:
CBA to start a new thread, so thought a drop in to the general fodder and melting pot of Mclaren content this thread reads likes:

I happened to just look at P1's then Senna's on PH classified.

Not one of the cars for sale has 1,000 miles on it.

I can not honestly imagine how dreary that must be to drop that much money on a car that is supposedly the pinnacle of driving and yet put less than 1,000miles on it in multi years. I know 'some are collectors' (note the so XP P1 for sale with 353 miles) and in another thread it was laughed at how those that own the cars and not use / put on any mileage have the last laugh as the prices soar, but the prices of these low miles Sennas seem to not be lifting.

Own a £1m car. Never use it. How did we get to this place ?
I think it's fairly obvious there are numerous possibilities how this may arise, even if we ignore the "investment" option. Let's say one drives to work Monday to Friday, maybe the odd Saturday. Spend other time with the family, holidays away etc, the time to actually use a £1m hypercar is probably very limited. Let's say these people get 1 weekend every 2 months where they may have a free day to enjoy a car for a few hours and do 200 miles. Let's then assume these people have 4 or 5 other super cars. Call it 5 others, so 6 in total. One use every 2 months for 200 miles would be using 1 car per year, 200 miles a pop. I think that's a very reasonable picture.

Then you have the situation like Flemke where the car wasn't legal in the country he expected to move to and thus sold before using it much etc.
You are right to point out this practical limitation on how much one might drive one's non-essential cars, although these days a lot of exotic cars are bought with no intention of being driven more than a few miles regardless of the external circumstances.
This is the sad part to my original comment on the 'subject'. I suspect it must also slightly grate the engineers, designers and all involved to create what they are told / tasked to be the ultimate (in that sector / time and space) for someone to buy it to park it.
May as well be a mule.

flemke said:
PushedDover said:
Sway, all points acknowledged and agree with to the point.

Petrus - that is a good alternative viewpoint of course.
I see it slightly different withte Car, Senna in particular. It didnt 'win' in its mission and raison d'etre did it?
Invariably it will also be bettered in due course. Therefore is it really a 'collectors piece' ? Therefore, drive the blasted things ?

Where does the lack of use and resulting 'bad maintenance' over rule the 'keep miles off it because of perceived value.

Or - take to extremes and remove the fluids in the car, and the perishables?
What would you say were the mission and raison d'etre that the Senna failed to win? scratchchin
paperbag I 'think' it was well received as a tremendous thing on the track.
But not on the Road.

Therefore what was the point of it as a Road legal car.



You could go faster and better on the track with a car without a plate and all the money saved would buy a great road car (that could possibly even said the said track car to the track ?

Edited by PushedDover on Wednesday 15th July 17:22
Henry Catchpole's YouTube review begs to differ, I believe.

I think the engineers of these cars wouldn't necessarily care too much about how much use they get, but are probably quite content knowing how good the product they helped design is a success at what it was meant to be (in this case, a very, very talented road car which more than holds its own on the track, and is better than the competition at the time).

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
ArgonautX said:
flemke said:
Ironically, the P1 and Senna are both driver's cars and the Speedtail is not. A production run of only 106 will however compensate for lack of success by other criteria.
Just because it's rare doesn't have to mean it's desireable.
It does absolutely nothing for me.
For 2 million+ I'm sure it would be possible to commission a custom build at MSO, based on 720S or LT.
Of course rarity does not correspond to desirability. The point was that rarity increases value, 106 units is certainly rare, and therefore that effect would help to compensate for any decrease in value brought about by the car's shortcomings (in the eyes of 'the market'). We may never know what the ultimate value of a Speedtail is, but last year prior to cars' being spec'd people were willing to pay very substantial premiums to get allocations.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
PushedDover said:
This is the sad part to my original comment on the 'subject'. I suspect it must also slightly grate the engineers, designers and all involved to create what they are told / tasked to be the ultimate (in that sector / time and space) for someone to buy it to park it.
May as well be a mule....



paperbag I 'think' it was well received as a tremendous thing on the track.
But not on the Road.

Therefore what was the point of it as a Road legal car.



You could go faster and better on the track with a car without a plate and all the money saved would buy a great road car (that could possibly even said the said track car to the track ?
You make an interesting point about the potential disappointment of people who were involved in creating the product, although I think their main gratification would normally come from the quality of the product rather than the quality of its usage.

Regarding the 'why use it on the road?' question, to me there is nothing wrong with a very stiff or very track-biased car on the road - you just don't want one as your daily driver. I have had a lot of road driving experience in the 993 RS Clubsport, which has zero insulation or sound-deadening, (in my case) a rock-hard suspension, no a/c, you have to climb over a welded cage to get in and out, seats with less than an inch of padding within a rigid shell. That car is more uncomfortable as a road car than a Senna is, but still I have had some great road drives in it. When I ordered the Senna, it was with the more normal Corsa road tyres, not the Trofeo. The intention was always to use it on the road, not on the circuit.
If the typical Caterham is considered a legitimate road car, I don't see why a Senna would not be.

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
PushedDover said:
flemke said:
Sounds like an interesting story about the Testarossa. Would you mind posting a link? Cheers.
it was this thread, giving some interesting insights :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

smile
Thank you for that. Yes, some of the posters on that thread 'get it'. thumbup

Church of Noise

1,453 posts

236 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
flemke said:
ou make an interesting point about the potential disappointment of people who were involved in creating the product, although I think their main gratification would normally come from the quality of the product rather than the quality of its usage.

Regarding the 'why use it on the road?' question, to me there is nothing wrong with a very stiff or very track-biased car on the road - you just don't want one as your daily driver. I have had a lot of road driving experience in the 993 RS Clubsport, which has zero insulation or sound-deadening, (in my case) a rock-hard suspension, no a/c, you have to climb over a welded cage to get in and out, seats with less than an inch of padding within a rigid shell. That car is more uncomfortable as a road car than a Senna is, but still I have had some great road drives in it. When I ordered the Senna, it was with the more normal Corsa road tyres, not the Trofeo. The intention was always to use it on the road, not on the circuit.
If the typical Caterham is considered a legitimate road car, I don't see why a Senna would not be.
Do you still have the Senna and how do you rate it?

flemke

22,864 posts

236 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
Church of Noise said:
flemke said:
ou make an interesting point about the potential disappointment of people who were involved in creating the product, although I think their main gratification would normally come from the quality of the product rather than the quality of its usage.

Regarding the 'why use it on the road?' question, to me there is nothing wrong with a very stiff or very track-biased car on the road - you just don't want one as your daily driver. I have had a lot of road driving experience in the 993 RS Clubsport, which has zero insulation or sound-deadening, (in my case) a rock-hard suspension, no a/c, you have to climb over a welded cage to get in and out, seats with less than an inch of padding within a rigid shell. That car is more uncomfortable as a road car than a Senna is, but still I have had some great road drives in it. When I ordered the Senna, it was with the more normal Corsa road tyres, not the Trofeo. The intention was always to use it on the road, not on the circuit.
If the typical Caterham is considered a legitimate road car, I don't see why a Senna would not be.
Do you still have the Senna and how do you rate it?
No because, in a reversal of what happened a year or so earlier, my plan to move to the US got changed. The car was a US-spec LHD car - not ideal in the UK!
I drove it just a bit. It was of the same genre as the 993 RS CS - light, powerful, direct feelsome steering, great brakes, seating position excellent, balanced chassis. Visibility less good than in 993.
On the performance numbers, by any criterion it obviously is well beyond the 993. I would rather drive the 993, but maybe that's because I prefer normally-aspirated, a manual 'box, and small-ish rather than quite big cars.
What did surprise me was how noisy it is in the Senna's cabin. The 993 is noisy, but the noise is coming from one direction and feels 'normal'. In the Senna the carbon shell seems to amplify the sound in an unpleasant, artificial way.

PushedDover

5,623 posts

52 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
flemke said:
I drove it just a bit. It was of the same genre as the 993 RS CS - light, powerful, direct feelsome steering, great brakes, seating position excellent, balanced chassis. Visibility less good than in 993.
On the performance numbers, by any criterion it obviously is well beyond the 993. I would rather drive the 993, but maybe that's because I prefer normally-aspirated, a manual 'box, and small-ish rather than quite big cars.
What did surprise me was how noisy it is in the Senna's cabin. The 993 is noisy, but the noise is coming from one direction and feels 'normal'. In the Senna the carbon shell seems to amplify the sound in an unpleasant, artificial way.
Totally see why all the ones I mentioned before have such low mileage when you describe it like that hehe

ArgonautX

157 posts

50 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
Flemke, do you know what are the HW changes in the LM spec engine?

Could a combination of non hdf car and LM engine hit 400 kmh? Or maybe a longtail with no rear wing?

shambolic

2,146 posts

166 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
Have a look at limited release of Adidas Spezial and city series trainers.
Exactly the same. All snapped up on release and never worn, or on sale within days on eBay for 200-500% profit.
Limited release and desirability, on a lesser price scale obviously. But same supply and demand scenario.
Just sad buying a pair of shoes to never wear.
I wear all mine as I like them. Bugger leaving them in the wardrobe to look at.
I’m a bit drunk and don’t actually know where I was going with this

PushedDover

5,623 posts

52 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
quotequote all
shambolic said:
Have a look at limited release of Adidas Spezial and city series trainers.
Exactly the same. All snapped up on release and never worn, or on sale within days on eBay for 200-500% profit.
Limited release and desirability, on a lesser price scale obviously. But same supply and demand scenario.
Just sad buying a pair of shoes to never wear.
I wear all mine as I like them. Bugger leaving them in the wardrobe to look at.
I’m a bit drunk and don’t actually know where I was going with this
rofl