"I don't do enough miles to justify buying a diesel"
Discussion
gizlaroc said:
Sure, go from a 300bhp straight six to a 160bhp 4cyl derv and you will save at the pump, but this that see 50mpg average from their 330d will see 40mpg from the 330i.
Exactly that.I ran a 530i manual for 8 years, I now run an 8 speed auto 530d. It has not halved my fuel bill and never was going to. Around town it is about 20% more efficient than my 530i. On a Motorway run it is about 30% more efficient. That's it.
I can regularly hit 50mpg on long Motorway trips which for a 1.9 tonne automatic saloon that can hit 60 in 6.2 seconds is not at all shabby but my 530i was hardly thirsty and would do 38mpg on the same trips. The fuel saving is mostly a psychological hit and once you sit down and do the maths the actual monetary saving just isn't all that.
I am finding myself preferring the power delivery of the 530d - the performance is just effortless and instant whenever I want it (With one HUGE exception - pulling out into traffic etc is NOT instant, there is a delay before the power appears in a way there simply isn't with a similar capacity petrol engine) but this isn't because it's a diesel its because it has a turbocharger and a fantastic gearbox. The 535i would be equally staggering in terms of its effortless power delivery and have the added benefit of not being a diesel.
Had people actually bothered to buy them new in any meaningful number I would be driving a 535i now but as they didn't I have a 530d. And I like it, but just because I drive a diesel doesn't mean I need to start bleating rubbish about THE TORQUE and 'HOW IT DRIVEZ' whilst pretending I didn't buy it because circumstances made me, like everyone else with a diesel.
In a world of freely available engine choices and free fuel nobody would pick the diesel and IMHO that sums the entire argument up for me. Diesel is a compromise you make - often a good compromise, often a fruitful compromise and often a compromise that rewards you with a fantastic car.
But it's still a compromise and you'd still deep down rather you could have a decent petrol engine.
TurboHatchback said:
I'm not really a fan of diesels in cars but I do think they work really well in 4x4s. A decent diesel engine in a 4x4 can move 2+ tons of vehicle around as fast as you would want it to go and still manage 30mpg, a petrol engine has to be huge to achieve the same sense of relaxed progress and would return more like half the mpg. Also off road the pulling power at barely over idle revs and the greater engine braking make the whole experience much easier and more relaxing.
Yes the downside is they sound rubbish and smell bad but you can't have everything.
More cockYes the downside is they sound rubbish and smell bad but you can't have everything.
Fox- said:
Exactly that.
I ran a 530i manual for 8 years, I now run an 8 speed auto 530d. It has not halved my fuel bill and never was going to. Around town it is about 20% more efficient than my 530i. On a Motorway run it is about 30% more efficient. That's it.
Stuff
In a world of freely available engine choices and free fuel nobody would pick the diesel and IMHO that sums the entire argument up for me. Diesel is a compromise you make - often a good compromise, often a fruitful compromise and often a compromise that rewards you with a fantastic car.
But it's still a compromise and you'd still deep down rather you could have a decent petrol engine.
Good post. I've driven a 530d which was great and ideal if you have cover lots of miles but if there was no cost penalty would have the 4.4 v8 from my old X5 as a 540i everyday.I ran a 530i manual for 8 years, I now run an 8 speed auto 530d. It has not halved my fuel bill and never was going to. Around town it is about 20% more efficient than my 530i. On a Motorway run it is about 30% more efficient. That's it.
Stuff
In a world of freely available engine choices and free fuel nobody would pick the diesel and IMHO that sums the entire argument up for me. Diesel is a compromise you make - often a good compromise, often a fruitful compromise and often a compromise that rewards you with a fantastic car.
But it's still a compromise and you'd still deep down rather you could have a decent petrol engine.
I have just bought an A4 1.9tdi PD. The car around the engine is comfortable, good interior blah blah. The engine is perfectly adequate but a 2.8 v6 petrol would be much nicer but I can't justify it at £1000+ difference in economy over a year.
If your genuinely are doing less than 15,000 miles pa then why not run a petrol.
I'm looking for a new car at the moment and Im torn between a something along the lines a 335d or petrol model vehicle of similar (car)size. I have a work vehicle so it will only do 12,000 pa
If you look at the fuel cost at 12,000 assuming you get 40mpg with 3 litre diesel and 25mpg with a petrol. Your looking at about £750-£800 per annum saving on fuel to the diesel.
To be honest I'm willing to pay £2 a day extra to drive a petrol and get all the benefit it entails. I am excluding road tax, but I think if you look at the costs it isn't a much difference in the grand schemes of things.
If your a fleet buyer and your leasing within the warranty I can appreciate the cost difference but for yourself and an assumed car lover then why not spend the extra to indulge yourself.
I'm looking for a new car at the moment and Im torn between a something along the lines a 335d or petrol model vehicle of similar (car)size. I have a work vehicle so it will only do 12,000 pa
If you look at the fuel cost at 12,000 assuming you get 40mpg with 3 litre diesel and 25mpg with a petrol. Your looking at about £750-£800 per annum saving on fuel to the diesel.
To be honest I'm willing to pay £2 a day extra to drive a petrol and get all the benefit it entails. I am excluding road tax, but I think if you look at the costs it isn't a much difference in the grand schemes of things.
If your a fleet buyer and your leasing within the warranty I can appreciate the cost difference but for yourself and an assumed car lover then why not spend the extra to indulge yourself.
gizlaroc said:
Not really.
Most petrols are up to temp within a couple of minutes or a mile.
Most diesels, that are very efficient, can take 10 miles or 15 minutes to get to temperature.
My ML actually heats up pretty quickly, around 8 minutes and 4 miles, well it is at 70ºc anyway, which is good enough to have warm air in the cabin, but the 350cdi takes ages!! 9 miles into town in the morning and it is not quite at its 92ºc, and still not very warm bowers at the roundabout which is 5 miles, and not winter yet either.
It's true it takes a long time for the engine to get completely hot - indeed in very cold weather and steady driving it might never get hot. Most petrols are up to temp within a couple of minutes or a mile.
Most diesels, that are very efficient, can take 10 miles or 15 minutes to get to temperature.
My ML actually heats up pretty quickly, around 8 minutes and 4 miles, well it is at 70ºc anyway, which is good enough to have warm air in the cabin, but the 350cdi takes ages!! 9 miles into town in the morning and it is not quite at its 92ºc, and still not very warm bowers at the roundabout which is 5 miles, and not winter yet either.
Hence diesels have for years had some kind of booster heater. I don't mean the separate auxiliary type, but my C270CDi has a 1.7Kw electric block heater which works below 8C. I get warm air in 3-400 yards.
Newer Mercs have heaters in the air ducts so you should get warm air pretty well instantly, like turning a hair dryer on.
Fords have a booster heater in the heater waterway. Honda use the a/c compressor as a heat pump.
mikal83 said:
TurboHatchback said:
I'm not really a fan of diesels in cars but I do think they work really well in 4x4s. A decent diesel engine in a 4x4 can move 2+ tons of vehicle around as fast as you would want it to go and still manage 30mpg, a petrol engine has to be huge to achieve the same sense of relaxed progress and would return more like half the mpg. Also off road the pulling power at barely over idle revs and the greater engine braking make the whole experience much easier and more relaxing.
Yes the downside is they sound rubbish and smell bad but you can't have everything.
More cockYes the downside is they sound rubbish and smell bad but you can't have everything.
Lloyd71 said:
Am I right in thinking that to get DPFs to regenerate you need to be doing a decent, long drive every once in a while? I've stayed away from them living on the Isle of Wight since there are no motorways or really long roads to drive on!
surely a Bicycle would be more suitable?Fastdruid said:
Sheepshanks said:
If it wasn't broken then there must have been something seriously wrong with it, or it was some kind of de-tuned, over-geared, economy version.
I drove all sorts of 2 litre ish petrol and diesel cars as a rep in the 90's and early 2000's - everything from 2L petrol Sierra and Mondeo to diesel Audi A4 and 3 Series. I had a Peugeot 405GTX TD and liked it so much I got another.
One of the things I liked about the turbo diesels is the torque makes them feel much more effortless to drive and on some of them (I remember the Honda Accord diesel was especially good for this) you could leave it in 3rd and it would do everything from 15MPH to 75MPH which was great for twisty rural A road driving. It's also not that easy to stall a diesel - obviously you can do it on purpose, but you've got to be that brutal. And stalling over speed-bumps - give over.
Different era of diesels. I've not driven a single diesel that does from 15mph to 75mph in 3rd. Well, they might with attempting to throw then engine out of the car it shakes so much and take 2 years to do it.I drove all sorts of 2 litre ish petrol and diesel cars as a rep in the 90's and early 2000's - everything from 2L petrol Sierra and Mondeo to diesel Audi A4 and 3 Series. I had a Peugeot 405GTX TD and liked it so much I got another.
One of the things I liked about the turbo diesels is the torque makes them feel much more effortless to drive and on some of them (I remember the Honda Accord diesel was especially good for this) you could leave it in 3rd and it would do everything from 15MPH to 75MPH which was great for twisty rural A road driving. It's also not that easy to stall a diesel - obviously you can do it on purpose, but you've got to be that brutal. And stalling over speed-bumps - give over.
As for stalling, 2nd gear, wiff of throttle and kerclunk. Only way was in 1st or to be going far faster.
I did learn afterwards that I *was* possibly driving it wrong, I should have left the throttle alone as allegedly it's almost impossible to stall a diesel on idle as the computer handles everything and will just increase torque. As soon as you touch the throttle though you're controlling it and it can stall.
But there is just *no* torque in a modern diesel below ~1500rpm which is the most annoying feature and despite the claims that "it must be broken" every single one has been the same.
A very simple test, stick your diesel in 1st and get it moving, let it run at tickover and then put your foot down. Every single petrol car I have *ever* driven, no matter how slow, turbo'd, NA, piston, rotary will take off immediately.
Every single diesel I have ever driven wait's and wait's and slowly lumbers up to ~1500rpm and then finally bursts into life and takes off. That is what I hate, more than the lack of top end it's the bottom end, every junction, every roundabout it's put your foot down and wait and wait and wait for something to happen, followed by a flurry of power. Sure you can drive round it to a certain extent (or accept that you're going to take a few hours to get back up to 30) but it involves revving the t*t's off it in 1st (where they all sound like transits) and that makes a total mockery of the "easier to drive" and "more torque" claims, I find I have to change gear far more in a diesel than a petrol car.
mikal83 said:
More cock
A well thought out and articulated counter argument there.deltashad said:
After owning an ML500 and my company car a Hilux 3.0 D4D I have to agree with TurboHatch.
I've owned a HDJ80 Landcruiser 4.2td manual, Gen-3 Hilux Surf 3.0td manual and a 5.7 Hemi Jeep. The Jeep was lovely on the road but did 18mpg and was only really faster than the diesel version when thrashing it, the Toyotas have plenty of grunt but manage 30+mpg. The Jeep was capable off road but lacked the control of the manual diesel 4x4s, the ability to engage low range 1st or 2nd gear and idle through terrain with feet off the pedals gives far greater control.TurboHatchback said:
I've owned a HDJ80 Landcruiser 4.2td manual, Gen-3 Hilux Surf 3.0td manual and a 5.7 Hemi Jeep. The Jeep was lovely on the road but did 18mpg and was only really faster than the diesel version when thrashing it, the Toyotas have plenty of grunt but manage 30+mpg. The Jeep was capable off road but lacked the control of the manual diesel 4x4s, the ability to engage low range 1st or 2nd gear and idle through terrain with feet off the pedals gives far greater control.
My Jeep 4.0 str8 6 averaged 20 mpg. C5 2.0 HDMI does 50 mpg. Heats up quickly, doesnt rattle/smell/noisy as some knowitalls here think/yak about.Triumph Man said:
Fastdruid said:
Sheepshanks said:
If it wasn't broken then there must have been something seriously wrong with it, or it was some kind of de-tuned, over-geared, economy version.
I drove all sorts of 2 litre ish petrol and diesel cars as a rep in the 90's and early 2000's - everything from 2L petrol Sierra and Mondeo to diesel Audi A4 and 3 Series. I had a Peugeot 405GTX TD and liked it so much I got another.
One of the things I liked about the turbo diesels is the torque makes them feel much more effortless to drive and on some of them (I remember the Honda Accord diesel was especially good for this) you could leave it in 3rd and it would do everything from 15MPH to 75MPH which was great for twisty rural A road driving. It's also not that easy to stall a diesel - obviously you can do it on purpose, but you've got to be that brutal. And stalling over speed-bumps - give over.
Different era of diesels. I've not driven a single diesel that does from 15mph to 75mph in 3rd. Well, they might with attempting to throw then engine out of the car it shakes so much and take 2 years to do it.I drove all sorts of 2 litre ish petrol and diesel cars as a rep in the 90's and early 2000's - everything from 2L petrol Sierra and Mondeo to diesel Audi A4 and 3 Series. I had a Peugeot 405GTX TD and liked it so much I got another.
One of the things I liked about the turbo diesels is the torque makes them feel much more effortless to drive and on some of them (I remember the Honda Accord diesel was especially good for this) you could leave it in 3rd and it would do everything from 15MPH to 75MPH which was great for twisty rural A road driving. It's also not that easy to stall a diesel - obviously you can do it on purpose, but you've got to be that brutal. And stalling over speed-bumps - give over.
As for stalling, 2nd gear, wiff of throttle and kerclunk. Only way was in 1st or to be going far faster.
I did learn afterwards that I *was* possibly driving it wrong, I should have left the throttle alone as allegedly it's almost impossible to stall a diesel on idle as the computer handles everything and will just increase torque. As soon as you touch the throttle though you're controlling it and it can stall.
But there is just *no* torque in a modern diesel below ~1500rpm which is the most annoying feature and despite the claims that "it must be broken" every single one has been the same.
A very simple test, stick your diesel in 1st and get it moving, let it run at tickover and then put your foot down. Every single petrol car I have *ever* driven, no matter how slow, turbo'd, NA, piston, rotary will take off immediately.
Every single diesel I have ever driven wait's and wait's and slowly lumbers up to ~1500rpm and then finally bursts into life and takes off. That is what I hate, more than the lack of top end it's the bottom end, every junction, every roundabout it's put your foot down and wait and wait and wait for something to happen, followed by a flurry of power. Sure you can drive round it to a certain extent (or accept that you're going to take a few hours to get back up to 30) but it involves revving the t*t's off it in 1st (where they all sound like transits) and that makes a total mockery of the "easier to drive" and "more torque" claims, I find I have to change gear far more in a diesel than a petrol car.
Some nervous drivers must struggle so much with the idea of diesel engines that they then find it difficult to relax enough to adapt to just driving these cars by taking note of the subtle characteristics that make them so amenable to most people in normal driving.
It is a real shame something so easy and inconsequential for so many young and old men and women is a struggle for the few.
Maybe a removal of the rev counter or merely a re-calibration to read 1.5x the actual number might go some way to helping these drivers? Maybe piped V8 petrol engine noises would also help?
mikal83 said:
My Jeep 4.0 str8 6 averaged 20 mpg. C5 2.0 HDMI does 50 mpg. Heats up quickly, doesnt rattle/smell/noisy as some knowitalls here think/yak about.
And this it the problem with half the people in the diesel debate. What a stupid set of numbers.My aunts Hyundai i10 1.0 is more economical than my BMW 530d, not sure what your logic would make of that?
mikal83 said:
My Jeep 4.0 str8 6 averaged 20 mpg. C5 2.0 HDMI does 50 mpg. Heats up quickly, doesnt rattle/smell/noisy as some knowitalls here think/yak about.
My friends Jeep Wrangler with the 2.8L diesel uses way more fuel than my Civic Type R, almost 50% more in fact. Case proven; diesels are rubbish for economy.Fox- said:
And this it the problem with half the people in the diesel debate. What a stupid set of numbers.
My aunts Hyundai i10 1.0 is more economical than my BMW 530d, not sure what your logic would make of that?
Easy if you read half the numpty threads here not camparing like for like.My aunts Hyundai i10 1.0 is more economical than my BMW 530d, not sure what your logic would make of that?
Oh and dont take your petrol car to the Eu for a holiday. Diesel in the majority of the Eu is around e1.2 a litre and Spain as an example, petrol e1.6 a litre.
mikal83 said:
Easy if you read half the numpty threads here not camparing like for like.
Oh and dont take your petrol car to the Eu for a holiday. Diesel in the majority of the Eu is around e1.2 a litre and Spain as an example, petrol e1.6 a litre.
Damn! Wish you'd told me that in August - we took the 125i for a Euro jaunt in September. Think it cost an extra tenner in fuel than the old diesel would have done. Bugger all in the scheme of a £1500 holiday, and the diesel wouldn't have been half as fun through tunnels or the narrow streets of Bruges. Saw plenty of other petrol cars motoring around, so you may want to go tell the Dutch/Belgians not to bother?Oh and dont take your petrol car to the Eu for a holiday. Diesel in the majority of the Eu is around e1.2 a litre and Spain as an example, petrol e1.6 a litre.
Must admit I'm loving no longer driving a diesel. Lovely and smooth, and 20mph to 100 in one gear if you have the required Autobahn. And as good as the 3 litre turbodiesel in the old car sounded (for a diesel) - it really can't compare to the 3 litre petrol that replaced it in the music stakes.
Fox- said:
mikal83 said:
My Jeep 4.0 str8 6 averaged 20 mpg. C5 2.0 HDMI does 50 mpg. Heats up quickly, doesnt rattle/smell/noisy as some knowitalls here think/yak about.
And this it the problem with half the people in the diesel debate. What a stupid set of numbers.My aunts Hyundai i10 1.0 is more economical than my BMW 530d, not sure what your logic would make of that?
I think even the most ardent of diesel haters would take the 530d over the i10.
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