"I don't do enough miles to justify buying a diesel"
Discussion
unpc said:
It's because driving a diesel is one of the most soulless experiences ever.
This is becoming a bit of a boring meme on pistonheads. Its simply not true. I have a 3L 6-cylinder diesel and the wave of torque is hugely entertaining, couple that with a decent rwd platform and it is anything but soulless. I'd say chassis and driven wheels are more important than fuel type.rockandrollmark said:
Excuse my ignorance on things, but why do folk say this?
Can someone set me straight?
Because people like to trot out the same old sCan someone set me straight?
t, and like to think they are right. Like the age old classic of you need xx,000 miles before it's better.The bottom line is, if you want to know how much it'll cost to buy and run each car, you need to do the work and crunch the numbers yourself. The more effort you put in to the 'model' the more accurate the results will be.
I've had scenarios where diesel cars paid for themselves pretty much instantly, based on a low purchase price and relatively low bork factor (VAG 1.9 130HP PD engine). Or I've had ones that it'd never pay to buy the diesel over the petrol over the amount of time I'd own it. 330i vs 330d.
IMO petrol engine have less to go wrong, although.
My car is 6 years old and has a DMF, large turbocharger and fantastically expensive spark plugs (£25 each?!) but I still wouldn't swap to a Diseasel because although it might chuck up a bill for a grand every now and then, the journey's I do are not far/fast enough to clear out the injectors/DPF/EGR so I would end up spending thousands to get this fixed. That plus, they don't sound remotely interesting, belch out smoke every time you put your foot down and the government are clamping down on them within city centers imminently, so IMO there's no point unless you spend most days up and down the motorways. There are some good Diseasel engines out there, but IMO, nothing comes close to a finely balanced petrol engine.
My car is 6 years old and has a DMF, large turbocharger and fantastically expensive spark plugs (£25 each?!) but I still wouldn't swap to a Diseasel because although it might chuck up a bill for a grand every now and then, the journey's I do are not far/fast enough to clear out the injectors/DPF/EGR so I would end up spending thousands to get this fixed. That plus, they don't sound remotely interesting, belch out smoke every time you put your foot down and the government are clamping down on them within city centers imminently, so IMO there's no point unless you spend most days up and down the motorways. There are some good Diseasel engines out there, but IMO, nothing comes close to a finely balanced petrol engine.
Maybe the OP is taking it too literally.
Like many polite excuses, I both take and use "I don't do enough miles to justify buying a diesel" to be a tactfully British way of saying something more akin to:
"I frigging hate diesels and would need to be paying fuel for 1,000 miles every day before I'd give up my petrol engine for one"
Like many polite excuses, I both take and use "I don't do enough miles to justify buying a diesel" to be a tactfully British way of saying something more akin to:
"I frigging hate diesels and would need to be paying fuel for 1,000 miles every day before I'd give up my petrol engine for one"
jamieduff1981 said:
Maybe the OP is taking it too literally.
Like many polite excuses, I both take and use "I don't do enough miles to justify buying a diesel" to be a tactfully British way of saying something more akin to:
"I frigging hate diesels and would need to be paying fuel for 1,000 miles every day before I'd give up my petrol engine for one"
Or. Like many polite excuses, I both take and use "I don't do enough miles to justify buying a diesel" to be a tactfully British way of saying something more akin to:
"I frigging hate diesels and would need to be paying fuel for 1,000 miles every day before I'd give up my petrol engine for one"
Diesels sound like plant equipment and don't fancy coughing up thousand pound bills everytime I do 500 yards.
Factor in depreciation before getting excited about potential savings on fuel and tax.
It's hilarious when someone proudly proclaims that their brand new 2 litre diesel is cheaper to run because it does 55mpg and only costs them £35 to tax. Then you ask them how much the car was to buy and how many years it will take for them to make a return on that investment, over simply continuing to run their older and not-much-less efficient petrol...
If you intend to replace your car anyway, then it's less of a concern, but I think some people are misguidedly believing that buying a brand new diesel will save them money in the short term.
It's hilarious when someone proudly proclaims that their brand new 2 litre diesel is cheaper to run because it does 55mpg and only costs them £35 to tax. Then you ask them how much the car was to buy and how many years it will take for them to make a return on that investment, over simply continuing to run their older and not-much-less efficient petrol...
If you intend to replace your car anyway, then it's less of a concern, but I think some people are misguidedly believing that buying a brand new diesel will save them money in the short term.
As has been said above, yearly mileage is really not relevant to the debate.
What matters is typical cold-start journey length and type. If you do 1000 motorway miles a year in one trip, a diesel will be better than a petrol; if you do 20000 miles a year in chronologically evenly spaced urban 5 mile stints, a petrol will be better than a diesel. Obviously most people fall somewhere between those two extremes which makes the whole thing a bit hard to work out.
For my usage (almost entirely a 4-mile in each direction commute) buying a diesel would be stupid.
What matters is typical cold-start journey length and type. If you do 1000 motorway miles a year in one trip, a diesel will be better than a petrol; if you do 20000 miles a year in chronologically evenly spaced urban 5 mile stints, a petrol will be better than a diesel. Obviously most people fall somewhere between those two extremes which makes the whole thing a bit hard to work out.
For my usage (almost entirely a 4-mile in each direction commute) buying a diesel would be stupid.
Diesel is more expensive - so the savings in MPG is effectively reduced
Diesels have DPF issues with low mileage
Purchase Price is usually higher
service costs are higher
Add in -
Dual Mass flywheel problems
Fuel pump problems
However
Cheaper car tax (for now)
congestion charge (for now)
resale is usually higher (for now)
But given the vast reduction in Tax revenues, and the issues over particulate pollution the above may not be the case for long.
p.s. I have a diesel, but I do 25k a year, it doesn't have a DMF and I have 5 year warranty.
Diesels have DPF issues with low mileage
Purchase Price is usually higher
service costs are higher
Add in -
Dual Mass flywheel problems
Fuel pump problems
However
Cheaper car tax (for now)
congestion charge (for now)
resale is usually higher (for now)
But given the vast reduction in Tax revenues, and the issues over particulate pollution the above may not be the case for long.
p.s. I have a diesel, but I do 25k a year, it doesn't have a DMF and I have 5 year warranty.
Justt o add to the costings. I run 2 diesels. Our Golf has been owned for over five years and has 160k on the clock. returns 42+ on the commute, has a decent bit of poke for getting upto speed and has 6th to cruise. Its failures over the years have been nothing more than any used car would give you. Driveshaft gaitors, Bearings, vac pipes, suspension parts and tyres and brakes. Nothing that a petrol would also give you jip on.
Our other is an A4, bearing, suspension bits and tyres and brakes and over a year and a halfs motoring with again about 40+ average mpg.
The last petrol I bought was a turbo petrol, did 27mpg to work, cost me tyres, brakes, servicing, exhaust and then popped its head gasket writing the car off in terms of value when fixed vs cost to fix.
Apart from the nicer noises the petrol had I miss nothing from it at all. Plus every penny the diesels saves me gets me closer to putting our 200+bhp petrol turbos back on the road for a bit of fun.
Our other is an A4, bearing, suspension bits and tyres and brakes and over a year and a halfs motoring with again about 40+ average mpg.
The last petrol I bought was a turbo petrol, did 27mpg to work, cost me tyres, brakes, servicing, exhaust and then popped its head gasket writing the car off in terms of value when fixed vs cost to fix.
Apart from the nicer noises the petrol had I miss nothing from it at all. Plus every penny the diesels saves me gets me closer to putting our 200+bhp petrol turbos back on the road for a bit of fun.
GreigM said:
unpc said:
It's because driving a diesel is one of the most soulless experiences ever.
This is becoming a bit of a boring meme on pistonheads. Its simply not true. I have a 3L 6-cylinder diesel and the wave of torque is hugely entertaining, couple that with a decent rwd platform and it is anything but soulless. I'd say chassis and driven wheels are more important than fuel type.I had a 118i bmw after my previous diesel had expensive repairs. Nice simple na engine, less to go wrong, still got 40 mpg out if it,, quieter and smoother than diesel, cheaper to buy etc..
All very good, and true, and then I got shafted on trade in because nobody wanted it. "Its not a diesel mate, people only want to buy diesels these days".
Knowing 'better' than the crowd got me in the end!
All very good, and true, and then I got shafted on trade in because nobody wanted it. "Its not a diesel mate, people only want to buy diesels these days".
Knowing 'better' than the crowd got me in the end!
I think 12,000 miles is closer to the rule, when buying something 2nd hand.
Even then, diesels hold their value better with age, because people are convinced (often wrongly) that because it costs less to tax and fuel that they will be saving money.
I wouldn't want a diesel on a 5 mile commute. (I'd barely even justify driving, I'd walk / cycle)
I like my old 2.0 HDi. It's frugal and it's quick enough to keep up with modern traffic. However, if I hadn't serviced and maintained it myself on the driveway it would have cost me more than its' worth in just a year, so I'm at the virtual bottom of the budget of cheap-to-run diesels.
There's lots of things I'd change though. It's complicated - even though I know how it all works, diagnosing a fault always means resorting to the forums. It makes a lot of noise, and its' a horrible noise. It makes a lot of smoke - which can be funny - but it makes the back of the car filthy after 150 or so miles. In the winter it's really cold, because like someone above pointed out, you're not heating the engine up enough and in turn the thermostat isn't opening to warm the cabin up. It takes an aaaaage to clear a frosty windscreen and I have to wear gloves to keep warm in the coldest months!
The emphasis has been on developing diesel cars in the last few years because it was seen as 'the future' (like Garlic Bread) but the reality is that they aren't as fun to drive as an equivalently-fast petrol car. As a result, there are very few interesting petrol cars on the second-hand market. I'm looking at changing jobs to something closer to home in the near future and one of the first things I will consider doing is changing to a much cheaper and straightforward (but more rewarding to drive) petrol car.
2000-2004 A4 1.9tdi = 48mpg avg used price £2,800 - £4,000
2000-2004 A4 1.8T = 34mpg avg used price £1,750 - £3,500
Buy carefully and it could work, but it's definitely worth putting a spreadsheet together...
Even then, diesels hold their value better with age, because people are convinced (often wrongly) that because it costs less to tax and fuel that they will be saving money.
I wouldn't want a diesel on a 5 mile commute. (I'd barely even justify driving, I'd walk / cycle)
I like my old 2.0 HDi. It's frugal and it's quick enough to keep up with modern traffic. However, if I hadn't serviced and maintained it myself on the driveway it would have cost me more than its' worth in just a year, so I'm at the virtual bottom of the budget of cheap-to-run diesels.
There's lots of things I'd change though. It's complicated - even though I know how it all works, diagnosing a fault always means resorting to the forums. It makes a lot of noise, and its' a horrible noise. It makes a lot of smoke - which can be funny - but it makes the back of the car filthy after 150 or so miles. In the winter it's really cold, because like someone above pointed out, you're not heating the engine up enough and in turn the thermostat isn't opening to warm the cabin up. It takes an aaaaage to clear a frosty windscreen and I have to wear gloves to keep warm in the coldest months!
The emphasis has been on developing diesel cars in the last few years because it was seen as 'the future' (like Garlic Bread) but the reality is that they aren't as fun to drive as an equivalently-fast petrol car. As a result, there are very few interesting petrol cars on the second-hand market. I'm looking at changing jobs to something closer to home in the near future and one of the first things I will consider doing is changing to a much cheaper and straightforward (but more rewarding to drive) petrol car.
2000-2004 A4 1.9tdi = 48mpg avg used price £2,800 - £4,000
2000-2004 A4 1.8T = 34mpg avg used price £1,750 - £3,500
Buy carefully and it could work, but it's definitely worth putting a spreadsheet together...
The op said he was going to buy a PD engine A4. What's that going to cost him, £2k. I would say any car that you are buying for £2 has the potential to throw up a bills that makes the repair uneconomical, petrol or diesel.
My missus drives an PD engined Audi A6 Avant. She does around 12,000 miles a year. Its a fairly soulless car and not very fast. It does 44mpg according to the trip computer. Now if I could buy a petrol A6 that wasn't asthmatic and could return around 40mpg, I would have probably gone for that, but you can't. So what the diesel allows us to do is run a reasonably large car for the same price as a soulless petrol Honda civic.
My missus drives an PD engined Audi A6 Avant. She does around 12,000 miles a year. Its a fairly soulless car and not very fast. It does 44mpg according to the trip computer. Now if I could buy a petrol A6 that wasn't asthmatic and could return around 40mpg, I would have probably gone for that, but you can't. So what the diesel allows us to do is run a reasonably large car for the same price as a soulless petrol Honda civic.
TheInternet said:
BL Fanboy said:
If you like the easy going, and midrange surge that a diesel turbo gives then why not. You wont get a petrol that will give anything like that feeling without going up massively in size or adding a turbo.
FTFYFTFY.
xstian said:
The op said he was going to buy a PD engine A4. What's that going to cost him, £2k. I would say any car that you are buying for £2 has the potential to throw up a bills that makes the repair uneconomical, petrol or diesel.
My missus drives an PD engined Audi A6 Avant. She does around 12,000 miles a year. Its a fairly soulless car and not very fast. It does 44mpg according to the trip computer. Now if I could buy a petrol A6 that wasn't asthmatic and could return around 40mpg, I would have probably gone for that, but you can't. So what the diesel allows us to do is run a reasonably large car for the same price as a soulless petrol Honda civic.
Yes. That's the conundrum and why a lot of us end up in diesels.My missus drives an PD engined Audi A6 Avant. She does around 12,000 miles a year. Its a fairly soulless car and not very fast. It does 44mpg according to the trip computer. Now if I could buy a petrol A6 that wasn't asthmatic and could return around 40mpg, I would have probably gone for that, but you can't. So what the diesel allows us to do is run a reasonably large car for the same price as a soulless petrol Honda civic.
It's all nonsense you need to be doing 10,000, 20,000 to justify a diesel. We have two both average over 55mpg the newer of the two has seen 70mpg no more expensive to maintain and not much more to buy. One is now on 130,000 miles and touch wood hasn't had any major issues just regular servicing. I would only get a petrol car if I lived in a city and did lots of stop start short trips an oil burner does benefit from decent weekly motorway trips.
Poopipe said:
We have a 2.0hdi in our 2001 picasso that has for the last 4 years done stty town driving, stop start etc and hasnt had a single exhaust or fuel related issue and has consistently returned very respectable fuel economy.
I hear that the more modern engines with all the extra emissions related filters etc will explode in your face if you shut them off less than 3000 miles after you turn them on but this may just be internet scaremongering and bullst.
The miles per year argument makes sense if you're buying new/nearly new as the initial outlay is significant as is the difference in price between petrol and diseasel .
If you're looking at an 8 year old audi these numbers shrink very fast and you'd probably see a return on your diesel investment very quickly indeed even if you dont do mega miles so the argument falls flat on its face and diesel wins.
Expensive failures/maintenance are an issue for sure but a petrol car is perfectly capable of throwing up a repair that isnt worth doing by the time they're 7-8years old.
Basically buy a diesel if you want, I cant see how its any more risky than a used petrol.
I cant see why you'd run one by choice unless you were doing a lot of motorway work or towing things but thats me.
Sorry but that's poor advice for someone considering buying a modern Diesel engined car. Your car is old tech (not necessarily a bad thing!) with no DPF/FAP to clog up and it's relatively unstressed. Town driving and stop/start will very quickly harm a modern diesel.tty town driving, stop start etc and hasnt had a single exhaust or fuel related issue and has consistently returned very respectable fuel economy.I hear that the more modern engines with all the extra emissions related filters etc will explode in your face if you shut them off less than 3000 miles after you turn them on but this may just be internet scaremongering and bulls
t.The miles per year argument makes sense if you're buying new/nearly new as the initial outlay is significant as is the difference in price between petrol and diseasel .
If you're looking at an 8 year old audi these numbers shrink very fast and you'd probably see a return on your diesel investment very quickly indeed even if you dont do mega miles so the argument falls flat on its face and diesel wins.
Expensive failures/maintenance are an issue for sure but a petrol car is perfectly capable of throwing up a repair that isnt worth doing by the time they're 7-8years old.
Basically buy a diesel if you want, I cant see how its any more risky than a used petrol.
I cant see why you'd run one by choice unless you were doing a lot of motorway work or towing things but thats me.
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