Another cyclist dies in London

[FiF]

cb1965 said:

As said the percentage is pretty small (which admittedly is not much comfort if you're in the small minority) and given the increase in cycling is quite remarkably small actually.

I drive round London quite a lot these days and there are some idiots in cars, taxis, vans etc. but by quite a long way the proportion of cyclists doing daft things is much higher. I really do think if all cyclists behaved like some do and paid a bit more attention to what's going on around them and didn't take silly chances the rate of injury and death would come down further. That's not to say all motorised vehicles are perfect either, but the the police could actually deal with a lot of them better if they chose to focus a bit more on the various misdemeanours some of them get up to.

On the question of increase in cycling, if you look at figs 4 and 5 on the TFL analysis, the number of radial journeys on the inner cordon has increased markedly. For example fig 5 from 2000 to 2010, the index of cycling flow increased from 100 to about 250, whilst the ksi index went from 100 to about 130. Some disparity.

A general observation is that in this debate, there's one faction that sees the other as suicidal uncaring idiots, whereas the other sees the first as homicidal uncaring monsters. Complete unwillingness by some to take any centre position, which all it does makes some of us, me for example, automatically discount and largely ignored what certain posters write. No names obviously, to do otherwise would simply be inflammatory. But it's tiresome.

[schmunk]

FiF said:

A general observation is that in this debate, there's one faction that sees the other as suicidal uncaring idiots, whereas the other sees the first as homicidal uncaring monsters. Complete unwillingness by some to take any centre position, which all it does makes some of us, me for example, automatically discount and largely ignored what certain posters write. No names obviously, to do otherwise would simply be inflammatory. But it's tiresome.

I agree.

Can we please stop the bickering?

[Rich_W]

FiF said:

A general observation is that in this debate, there's one faction that sees the other as suicidal uncaring idiots, whereas the other sees the first as homicidal uncaring monsters. Complete unwillingness by some to take any centre position, which all it does makes some of us, me for example, automatically discount and largely ignored what certain posters write. No names obviously, to do otherwise would simply be inflammatory. But it's tiresome.

I disagree

The former faction just hate bikes. Whether that's because they feel its unfair they "don't pay road tax innit" or because they are athletically challenged and cant ride bikes or any other reason you can imagine. The accidents and red light jumping just reinforce their notion that all cyclists are law breakers and sub human and not to be given any credibility or respect. And this inevitably is the worst possible place to start from. If you dehumanise a section of the population then how will you ever deal with them sensibly when around them on the roads. No amount of discussion on here will change their views. If you changed "Cyclists" to "Black people" it wouldn't be allowed. But that's life I guess. My gut is that these are in a minority. Both here and out on the road. They post the same stereotypical crap on every thread where they see the word "cyclist" They also incorrectly assume that this site means people will automatically hate bikes and love cars. They post what they post hoping for kudos, forgetting they are the minority.

The latter faction are more nuanced. I like bikes, always have, hopefully always will. And I cringe when I see some other people on bikes. And the way some ride like idiots. I haven't really seen any of the bike people defend ste riding. Or that all cars should be stricken from the roads.

Mostly I see those people just asking for a little patience and space to operate. But yes when they meet people driving from the former category they inevitably see them as uncaring s (and tbh they are!) But they also don't assume that ALL car drivers are like that in the way the former group ASSUME all bike riders are the same.

IME the majority of people on the roads can deal with a cyclist or 3 just fine. They do the right thing, slow a bit, give a sensible amount of room. Its those wkers in the former category who are the ones that mete out punishment passes and are the most dangerous. Not because they can't do the right thing. But because their hatred for bike riders means they cannot allow themselves to do so!

[Mave]

cb1965 said:

Mave said:

You didn't ask what i thought. You asked me what I had said. As requested previously, I've answered your question directly.

FFS!!!!

Mave said:

cb1965 said:

We have established many pages back that not many die as a percentage and those that do generally do so due to colliding with heavy goods vehicles and usually when said vehicles are turning.

"we" have established no such thing.

Put simply what is it you disagree with here then?

I disagree that we have established that when cyclists die it is generally due to them colliding with a HGV and usually when those vehicles are turning.

[saaby93]

Rich_W said:

FiF said:

A general observation is that in this debate, there's one faction that sees the other as suicidal uncaring idiots, whereas the other sees the first as homicidal uncaring monsters. Complete unwillingness by some to take any centre position, which all it does makes some of us, me for example, automatically discount and largely ignored what certain posters write. No names obviously, to do otherwise would simply be inflammatory. But it's tiresome.

I disagree

The former faction just hate bikes. Whether that's because they feel its unfair they "don't pay road tax innit" or because they are athletically challenged and cant ride bikes or any other reason you can imagine. The accidents and red light jumping just reinforce their notion that all cyclists are law breakers and sub human and not to be given any credibility or respect. And this inevitably is the worst possible place to start from. If you dehumanise a section of the population then how will you ever deal with them sensibly when around them on the roads. No amount of discussion on here will change their views. If you changed "Cyclists" to "Black people" it wouldn't be allowed. But that's life I guess. My gut is that these are in a minority. Both here and out on the road. They post the same stereotypical crap on every thread where they see the word "cyclist" They also incorrectly assume that this site means people will automatically hate bikes and love cars. They post what they post hoping for kudos, forgetting they are the minority.

The latter faction are more nuanced. I like bikes, always have, hopefully always will. And I cringe when I see some other people on bikes. And the way some ride like idiots. I haven't really seen any of the bike people defend ste riding. Or that all cars should be stricken from the roads.

Mostly I see those people just asking for a little patience and space to operate. But yes when they meet people driving from the former category they inevitably see them as uncaring s (and tbh they are!) But they also don't assume that ALL car drivers are like that in the way the former group ASSUME all bike riders are the same.

IME the majority of people on the roads can deal with a cyclist or 3 just fine. They do the right thing, slow a bit, give a sensible amount of room. Its those wkers in the former category who are the ones that mete out punishment passes and are the most dangerous. Not because they can't do the right thing. But because their hatred for bike riders means they cannot allow themselves to do so!

Exchange driver with cyclist in your piece and you neatly have both sides of the intolerant

[FiF]

saaby93 said:

Rich_W said:

FiF said:

A general observation is that in this debate, there's one faction that sees the other as suicidal uncaring idiots, whereas the other sees the first as homicidal uncaring monsters. Complete unwillingness by some to take any centre position, which all it does makes some of us, me for example, automatically discount and largely ignored what certain posters write. No names obviously, to do otherwise would simply be inflammatory. But it's tiresome.

I disagree

The former faction just hate bikes. Whether that's because they feel its unfair they "don't pay road tax innit" or because they are athletically challenged and cant ride bikes or any other reason you can imagine. The accidents and red light jumping just reinforce their notion that all cyclists are law breakers and sub human and not to be given any credibility or respect. And this inevitably is the worst possible place to start from. If you dehumanise a section of the population then how will you ever deal with them sensibly when around them on the roads. No amount of discussion on here will change their views. If you changed "Cyclists" to "Black people" it wouldn't be allowed. But that's life I guess. My gut is that these are in a minority. Both here and out on the road. They post the same stereotypical crap on every thread where they see the word "cyclist" They also incorrectly assume that this site means people will automatically hate bikes and love cars. They post what they post hoping for kudos, forgetting they are the minority.

The latter faction are more nuanced. I like bikes, always have, hopefully always will. And I cringe when I see some other people on bikes. And the way some ride like idiots. I haven't really seen any of the bike people defend ste riding. Or that all cars should be stricken from the roads.

Mostly I see those people just asking for a little patience and space to operate. But yes when they meet people driving from the former category they inevitably see them as uncaring s (and tbh they are!) But they also don't assume that ALL car drivers are like that in the way the former group ASSUME all bike riders are the same.

IME the majority of people on the roads can deal with a cyclist or 3 just fine. They do the right thing, slow a bit, give a sensible amount of room. Its those wkers in the former category who are the ones that mete out punishment passes and are the most dangerous. Not because they can't do the right thing. But because their hatred for bike riders means they cannot allow themselves to do so!

Exchange driver with cyclist in your piece and you neatly have both sides of the intolerant

Precisely, glad you posted that, reading it felt as if the appropriate comment was ' aaand here we go round the loop again.'

[Rich_W]

FiF said:

saaby93 said:

Exchange driver with cyclist in your piece and you neatly have both sides of the intolerant

Precisely, glad you posted that, reading it felt as if the appropriate comment was ' aaand here we go round the loop again.'

Not really. There's no loop because there's no balance between the 2 groups! This isn't ying and yang. This isn't 50/50

CB, Popeye, 2BL et al are a vocal minority. They hate bikes. They cannot abide them on the roads and hate anyone who defends them. Every and ALL cyclists are law breaking s to them.There simply is never a bike rider that doesn't do something wrong in their eyes. They will excuse (or employ standard forum blinkers) any person driving a car/motorised transport who makes a mistake. Show this tiny group a bike rider being a dick and they will say "SEE! All bikers are tts"


Mave, Heebee. myself etc Like (or are ambivalent to) bikes but don't deny some riders are tts. And I don't think I've seen them say that they hate ALL car drivers. Just a minority who are incompetent. I don't think car drivers are perfect. I don't think bike riders are perfect. I tend towards the person rather than the mode of transport. show us a video of bikers being stupid and I'll say "that rider is being stupid" I don't automatically back the bike just because I like to ride bikes.

I will suggest that 99% of the population (not just here) are in the latter category.

It's pointless trying to debate the former category. Every thread on PH with them involved goes the same way.

[WinstonWolf]

cb1965 said:

Mave said:

cb1965 said:

Mave said:

I wouldn't waste your time. Reading, understanding, and responding to what people have actually said is not cb1965s MO. Only in cb1965s strange little world could my comments quoted above, be interpreted as my thinking that "if a cyclist goes down the inside of a HGV and gets killed, it's the driver's fault"
[/footnote]

Edited by Mave on Saturday 27th May 18:44

You're the one using emotive expressions about drivers killing cyclists, not me.

I didn't say anything about the use of emotive expressions, I questioned your ability to read, understand, and respond to someone's post. Which, yet again, you have proved you are unable to do.

The problem is that you and that other dolt wkerWolf are unable to read what is written without applying a biased uber pro cycling filter to it first. This leaves you unable to comprehend any argument presented to you in the way a normal person would.

To explain one final time to see if it can seep through to whatever it is you use for a brain this thread is whinging about cyclists dying in London. We have established many pages back that not many die as a percentage and those that do generally do so due to colliding with heavy goods vehicles and usually when said vehicles are turning.

Of the cases that get to a prosecution stage the majority seem to find no fault with the driver and I suspect the prosecutions only come about as a result of heavy pressure by pro cycling groups on the authorities (witness nonsense like their pathetic protests where they all lie in the street and 'play dead'). This means that the inevitable conclusion is these cyclists are putting themselves in danger by riding up the side of HGVs as we all know there is no such thing as an accident any more.

Yet you come on here and reference 'drivers killing cyclists'. When you were called on it a few pages back you defended it and said that is exactly what it is, yet it clearly isn't is it? It's generally cyclists being ****ing stupid yet we're not allowed to say that as you and your chums get all butt hurt and start jumping up and down like a bunch of 3 year olds.

Face facts you are absolutely equating cyclists putting themselves in danger with the expression 'drivers killing cyclists' and you are bang out of order doing so!

No doubt you will come back with another twisted reply desperately trying to insult my intelligence as always, well crack on if it makes you feel better about yourself, I am sitting here with a university education and earning a nice living... if I can do that and be stupid then yay for me!

And yet you spent the whole day arguing on the Internet

[anonymous-user]

WinstonWolf said:

And yet you spent the whole day arguing on the Internet

Says the with over 67,000 posts! That's over 14 posts a day every single day of the 13 years you have been here.... yet I'm the one who spends all day on the Internet???? Utter fking muppet!

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 28th May 22:09

[anonymous-user]

Rich_W said:

CB, Popeye, 2BL et al are a vocal minority. They hate bikes. They cannot abide them on the roads and hate anyone who defends them. Every and ALL cyclists are law breaking s to them.

No, you're not biased at all. A perfectly well balanced individual with no chip on his shoulder whatsoever!!!

Nowhere have I ever said all cyclists are law breaking s and nowhere have I said I hate bikes. I do, however, hate liars and there's a fair portion of those on here, you being one of them. Like it or not, and despite the fact you won't accept it, there are a good proportion of cyclists in London who behave like utter bell ends and it's fair to say I don't like them or the drivers who drive like idiots either.

The difference is that I don't see driver action groups whining and whinging about how hard done by they are where that is what we get with pro cycling groups and they utterly refuse to accept that some cyclists contribute to their own downfall... that is what really gets my back up!

[Lance Catamaran]

This happened just down the road from me, will be interesting to hear the full details when they emerge

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4549794/Ke...

[anonymous-user]

Mave said:

I disagree that we have established that when cyclists die it is generally due to them colliding with a HGV and usually when those vehicles are turning.

OK, well if you want to ignore facts in pursuit of your own agenda carry on!

[Mave]

cb1965 said:

Mave said:

I disagree that we have established that when cyclists die it is generally due to them colliding with a HGV and usually when those vehicles are turning.

OK, well if you want to ignore facts in pursuit of your own agenda carry on!

So where is the post, or series of posts, where we have established the above?

[Mave]

Rich_W said:

Not really. There's no loop because there's no balance between the 2 groups! This isn't ying and yang. This isn't 50/50

CB, Popeye, 2BL et al are a vocal minority. They hate bikes. They cannot abide them on the roads and hate anyone who defends them. Every and ALL cyclists are law breaking s to them.There simply is never a bike rider that doesn't do something wrong in their eyes. They will excuse (or employ standard forum blinkers) any person driving a car/motorised transport who makes a mistake. Show this tiny group a bike rider being a dick and they will say "SEE! All bikers are tts"


Mave, Heebee. myself etc Like (or are ambivalent to) bikes but don't deny some riders are tts. And I don't think I've seen them say that they hate ALL car drivers. Just a minority who are incompetent. I don't think car drivers are perfect. I don't think bike riders are perfect. I tend towards the person rather than the mode of transport. show us a video of bikers being stupid and I'll say "that rider is being stupid" I don't automatically back the bike just because I like to ride bikes.

I will suggest that 99% of the population (not just here) are in the latter category.

It's pointless trying to debate the former category. Every thread on PH with them involved goes the same way.

Very well said.

[FiF]

Rich_W said:

FiF said:

saaby93 said:

Exchange driver with cyclist in your piece and you neatly have both sides of the intolerant

Precisely, glad you posted that, reading it felt as if the appropriate comment was ' aaand here we go round the loop again.'

Not really. There's no loop because there's no balance between the 2 groups! This isn't ying and yang. This isn't 50/50

CB, Popeye, 2BL et al are a vocal minority. They hate bikes. They cannot abide them on the roads and hate anyone who defends them. Every and ALL cyclists are law breaking s to them.There simply is never a bike rider that doesn't do something wrong in their eyes. They will excuse (or employ standard forum blinkers) any person driving a car/motorised transport who makes a mistake. Show this tiny group a bike rider being a dick and they will say "SEE! All bikers are tts"


Mave, Heebee. myself etc Like (or are ambivalent to) bikes but don't deny some riders are tts. And I don't think I've seen them say that they hate ALL car drivers. Just a minority who are incompetent. I don't think car drivers are perfect. I don't think bike riders are perfect. I tend towards the person rather than the mode of transport. show us a video of bikers being stupid and I'll say "that rider is being stupid" I don't automatically back the bike just because I like to ride bikes.

I will suggest that 99% of the population (not just here) are in the latter category.

It's pointless trying to debate the former category. Every thread on PH with them involved goes the same way.

I'm sorry but your bias is showing, it's a good attempt at trying to take a middle ground, but there are some on the cycling side where every thread with them involved goes the same way.

[anonymous-user]

Mave said:

So where is the post, or series of posts, where we have established the above?

Earlier in this thread, but also in the link I posted today, if you tot it up and then read the reports linked to each one.

Thing is though Mave you're not really here for any sensible debate. You have your agenda, that much is clear, and when faced with anything that challenges it you just bluster and divert any questions. It's tiresome frankly and the fact you agree with Rich_w's post just illustrates that further!

[frisbee]

Lance Catamaran said:

This happened just down the road from me, will be interesting to hear the full details when they emerge

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4549794/Ke...

They should castrate anyone who writes a comment on the daily mail site (on the daily mail site itself, not your post!). It would solve so many of this country's problems.

[Rich_W]

cb1965 said:

Rich_W said:

CB, Popeye, 2BL et al are a vocal minority. They hate bikes. They cannot abide them on the roads and hate anyone who defends them. Every and ALL cyclists are law breaking s to them.

No, you're not biased at all. A perfectly well balanced individual with no chip on his shoulder whatsoever!!!

I'm biased against you, mainly because youre a gobste with no ability to make a coherrant counter argument

cb1965 said:

. Like it or not, and despite the fact you won't accept it, there are a good proportion of cyclists in London who behave like utter bell ends and it's fair to say I don't like them or the drivers who drive like idiots either.

And there you go again! fkwit!

I KNOW there's a proportion of riders in London that behave like bell ends. I don't like them either! I can remember sitting at a set of lights on my bike in my lycra (since I don't often rlj) and a fattie on a bike slinked down the outside and went straight through the red. I actually shouted "What a fking !" at him he ignored me. The car driver to my right actually laughed. But the fact is to the small minded tts like yourself. You see a bike rider doing something illegal and assume its the majority. When it's a minority, not a "good proportion" at all. In the same way the 19yo in his car racing around the one way system is NOT all or a "good proportion" of drivers but a minority.

cb1965 said:

The difference is that I don't see driver action groups whining and whinging about how hard done by they are...

Seriously? Take off your blinkers you fool. There's all manner of people complaining here and elsewhere that the motorist is hard done by! Speed Cameras, increasing fuel duty, parking charges etc etc They aren't necessarily wrong on some points. But don't make out theres no one helping out drivers. AA and RAC ring any bells?

cb1965 said:

where that is what we get with pro cycling groups and they utterly refuse to accept that some cyclists contribute to their own downfall...

Some cyclists absolutely contribute to their own downfall. I don't see ANY organisation saying that's not the case. But feel free to link to a well known organisation stating that!

However, some cyclists do everything right and still suffer downfall through no fault of their own. And THOSE are the ones I think of with this thread.

FiF said:

I'm sorry but your bias is showing,

As I said above, I'm completely biased against thick people who can't debate without resorting to coverall phrases to try and fit their narrative. It's both lazy and ignorant!

I'll say it again. Not all bike riders are saints. Not all drivers are saints. It's simple. Not sure how that means I have a bias that means what I say is discounted? How am I biased for bikes because I ride one, but not biased for cars because I also drive one?

FiF said:

but there are some on the cycling side where every thread with them involved goes the same way.

You're right, when 2bL and particularly CB starting their nonsensical, ill thought out, stereotypical rants people should ignore them rather than keep trying to prove them wrong.

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 28th May 22:55

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 28th May 23:00

[saaby93]

Rich_W said:

CB, Popeye, 2BL et al are a vocal minority. They hate bikes. They cannot abide them on the roads and hate anyone who defends them. Every and ALL cyclists are law breaking s to them.There simply is never a bike rider that doesn't do something wrong in their eyes. They will excuse (or employ standard forum blinkers) any person driving a car/motorised transport who makes a mistake. Show this tiny group a bike rider being a dick and they will say "SEE! All bikers are tts"

Youve done it again
exchange driver for cyclist and youve got both sets of intolerant

[anonymous-user]

Rich_W said:

cb1965 said:

Rich_W said:

CB, Popeye, 2BL et al are a vocal minority. They hate bikes. They cannot abide them on the roads and hate anyone who defends them. Every and ALL cyclists are law breaking s to them.

No, you're not biased at all. A perfectly well balanced individual with no chip on his shoulder whatsoever!!!

I'm biased against you, mainly because youre a gobste with no ability to make a coherrant counter argument

The irony of you not being able to spell coherent is quite amusing

Rich_W said:

cb1965 said:

. Like it or not, and despite the fact you won't accept it, there are a good proportion of cyclists in London who behave like utter bell ends and it's fair to say I don't like them or the drivers who drive like idiots either.

And there you go again! fkwit!

I KNOW there's a proportion of riders in London that behave like bell ends. I don't like them either! I can remember sitting at a set of lights on my bike in my lycra (since I don't often rlj) and a fattie on a bike slinked down the outside and went straight through the red. I actually shouted "What a fking !" at him he ignored me. The car driver to my right actually laughed. But the fact is to the small minded tts like yourself. You see a bike rider doing something illegal and assume its the majority. When it's a minority, not a "good proportion" at all. In the same way the 19yo in his car racing around the one way system is NOT all or a "good proportion" of drivers but a minority.

You don't get out much in London do you? I'll spell it out for you - the percentage of cyclists who behave like bell ends is much higher than the percentage of drivers. It's that simple!

Rich_W said:

cb1965 said:

The difference is that I don't see driver action groups whining and whinging about how hard done by they are...

Seriously? Take off your blinkers you fool. There's all manner of people complaining here and elsewhere that the motorist is hard done by! Speed Cameras, increasing fuel duty, parking charges etc etc They aren't necessarily wrong on some points. But don't make out theres no one helping out drivers. AA and RAC ring any bells?

Not the same thing at all. You don't see the AA/RAC getting drivers to lie in the road and pretend to be dead or any other of that emotive self indulgent crap that the pro cycling lobbies get up to. You also don't get the likes of the AA and RAC pretending all their members are angels, can do no wrong and are automatically victims in any collision etc. etc.

Rich_W said:

cb1965 said:

where that is what we get with pro cycling groups and they utterly refuse to accept that some cyclists contribute to their own downfall...

Some cyclists absolutely contribute to their own downfall. I don't see ANY organisation saying that's not the case. But feel free to link to a well known organisation stating that!

Just about all of them have a holier than thou stance, you of course aren't capable of seeing that!

Rich_W said:

However, some cyclists do everything right and still suffer downfall through no fault of their own. And THOSE are the ones I think of with this thread.

About the only sensible thing you have come out with!