RE: Smart motorways are dumb: Tell Me I'm Wrong

RE: Smart motorways are dumb: Tell Me I'm Wrong

Author
Discussion

kev b

2,708 posts

165 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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I concur with Bernhunds posts, I have been doing a fair bit of long distance work recently, taking friends to airports/docks/hospitals/uni etc. You have less and less time to concentrate on driving as most of your concentration can be taken up by average/variable limits and fixed speed cameras not to mention roadworks, cones and multiple signs.

What I can't grasp is how cars are able to sail past me at 60mph when the average limit is set to 40mph, these drivers must know something I don't, I would like to know how they gained this knowledge.

Not wishing for points on my licence when on unfamiliar roads, I try to keep within the speed limit but often there is scant signage to show where the average speed camera zone has finished.

This may lead me to bumble along at 50mph when others are whizzing past at 70+mph but, as some drivers do this within the limited zone I am often left unsure what speed to travel.

Also it seems many cars stay at 60mph on dual carriageways where they can legally do 70mph, in the past this did not bother me as I would just overtake but now I get paranoid, thinking I may have missed a sign whilst passing trucks or high vans.

whyohwhy

280 posts

211 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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I can see the point with a well managed variable speed limit system. But getting rid of the hard shoulder is madness.

If you look at the number of lorries that are unable to avoid broken down vehicles on the hard shoulders that still exist what hope is there of them avoiding a stopped vehicle in a live lane.

Ridiculous idea that can only have come from someone who doesn't drive.

NoNeed

15,137 posts

199 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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I travel from J6 to J11 on the M6 daily and can confirm that all the above are very true, the whole thing just does not work. I would add that I have yet to see anybody take notice of the red X I have recently see 3 lanes closed yet all 4 still in use.

Krikkit

26,500 posts

180 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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I'm finding I get stuck stationary for a lot less time in the managed sections - even if the journey time is slightly slower, it usually means avoiding sitting in stationary traffic.

The hard shoulder idea is a bit much though, I'd be scared stless having a breakdown on a managed section.

Paul v8

756 posts

164 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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I drive the m25 a lot and find the system crap , there will be signs stay In lane heavy congestion but motorway nearly empty ,when they flash up reduced speeds sends a huge tidal wave of red lights back down the road ,when I'm sure would be much easier and safer to allow still at NSL but make what's ahead clearer and how far ahead

Renovation

1,763 posts

120 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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M42 has had this system for some time.

Each gantry seems to generate random numbers I've had 60 40 60 50 in a row, all within sight of each other, with no apparent reason.

I think there must be an incentive to limit the speed as it regularly reduces the limit to 60 or 50 outside of rush hour with very light traffic and the ordinary sections of M40 / M42 ahead were clear too.

Great in theory - rubbish in reality.

RenesisEvo

3,602 posts

218 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Until recently I had to circumnavigate the M25 very late at night, and the smart gantries were utterly woeful in operation. Regularly the limit was set at 50 or 40mph for many miles, for some roadworks that never materialised. There were a mere handful of other users on the entire road - I even ran main beam a few times.

The credibility of the system for me was in tatters after one particular night. Clockwise from J11, the M25 gantries gradually brought the speed limit down - 60, 50, 40, 40, 40... still no sign of the roadworks that apparently were the cause. Eventually I'm shown 50, 60, then NSL. Up to speed, then two miles down the road there were cones bringing four lanes down to just one lane - but the gantries were still set at NSL! Is there no co-ordination between the roadworks and the control centre? Do they not use the hundreds of cameras (which are easily accessible to the public) in place? Smart motorways are dumb? It might just be the people operating them. I fully agree with the 'crying wolf' issue.

Usget

5,426 posts

210 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Good article. The credibility of the information is absolutely the key point. Imagine if Air Traffic Control were run to as hit-and-miss a standard as the variable limits?

Also, I've *never* been through the M5-M6 interchange when the 60mph limit hasn't been in force - even in the dead of night without a soul around. "Congestion ahead" - yeah, right...

Chris1255

203 posts

110 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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It does seem to work with heavy but still moving traffic on the M25. But otherwise I'd agree with everything that's been said about false warnings, inappropriately low limits with no traffic and arbitrary changes from one gantry to the next.

Martcouz

26 posts

152 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Interesting discussion; I drive regularly on the M25 and frequently across France on the autoroute network and the difference is remarkable. In essence, both the UK and France have similar driver communication arrangements - overhead gantries with messages displayed , speed limit signs and video surveillance of traffic. The difference appears to be the way the systems are operated. I have often experienced the inexplicable changes in speed limit on apparently clear stretches of the M25 and no longer take notice of warning messages which invariably are redundant by the time I pass through.

The French system in contrast is highly informative and right up to the minute. I get warnings that are specific, informative and appropriate which is to say they tell me what is happening in the next few kilometers of my journey. Moreover, the warnings are deleted the moment the problem is resolved. It is genuinely helpful to know a dead animal is in the outside lane (I think it was a deer!) before you come upon it and the safety value of warnings of broken down vehicles on the hard shoulder are evident.

Put bluntly, the French installed all the capital equipment and then made very good use of it. In the UK we seem to have invested to an equal degree in the equipment but are failing miserably to operate it effectively.

55palfers

5,893 posts

163 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Any NIPs issued on these sections should be accompanied by the reason the reduced speed limit was applied and the exact location of the hazard.

Maybe also the qualifications, training and experience of the operator to make such a decision.

Landshark

2,117 posts

180 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Dan Trent said:
Esceptico said:
Perhaps what we need is a journalist to do some investigating and speak to the people that operate the motorways/speed limits so we can understand what they are doing and why. Over to you Dan....
I'd be up for that and hope to explore opportunities if offered. I did a couple of shifts on the beat with Northants traffic and it was fascinating and exploded a lot of assumptions. Maybe the same in a control centre would do the same. If there is anyone in the business drop me a line and as per basis of the piece you can tell - and show - me I'm wrong.

Cheers,

Dan
I think you do need to spend some time with 'the other side' , whilst no great lover of the system, it does work (generally) it also does break and some parts (M25 j10 j15) is very old. Some of the things you talk about in your article are typical journalism writings where someone has said something and you've believed it (plus it strikes more of a chord with the readers). There is a grace period on the change of limits, most the speed reductions are automatic (MIDAS), Animals on road - someone would have seen it called it in and given a rough location so it has to be set for an area (normally between 2 junctions - not 40 miles) and cars do travel the wrong way, scarily more often that you think, so just be glad you don't see it!!


DickP

1,117 posts

149 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Has anyone else also noticed the advertising campaign by the HA on what the red X sign means? Does this not say that the system is flawed if this is required?

Just the other day I saw cars going down a red X signed lane, for the M606 off M62. Reason the X was on was because a car was actually sat in the lane. Two of the cars running in the closed lane nearly ploughed straight into the back of it. Fortunately the driver of the broken down car was sensible and was stood well away behind a barrier.

ukaskew

10,642 posts

220 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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After travelling along the long, long stretch of the M3 that is currently 50 and covered by average speed cameras I do wonder if I'm missing some sort of a trick. Lots of cars comfortably exceeding 60mph and flying off into distance. The smart limits are also widely ignored by at least 10mph.

Dan Trent

1,866 posts

167 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Jayyylo said:
EDIT2: Dan, if you go visit Gafferjim in the control office take a camera and make a feature piece for PHTV.

Edited by Jayyylo on Sunday 19th April 12:31


Edited by Jayyylo on Sunday 19th April 13:18
I've dropped Gafferjim a note; hopefully we can make this happen. Watch this space!

Dan

slowhand99

242 posts

107 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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These limits are also imposed when a stretch of motorway exceeds its emissions limit. Hence no apparent reason for the hold up. Tell me I'm wrong wink

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
quotequote all
Dan Trent said:
Esceptico said:
Perhaps what we need is a journalist to do some investigating and speak to the people that operate the motorways/speed limits so we can understand what they are doing and why. Over to you Dan....
I'd be up for that and hope to explore opportunities if offered. I did a couple of shifts on the beat with Northants traffic and it was fascinating and exploded a lot of assumptions. Maybe the same in a control centre would do the same. If there is anyone in the business drop me a line and as per basis of the piece you can tell - and show - me I'm wrong.

Cheers,

Dan
Hey Dan,

Greatest of respect and all that, but as part of one of the most-read motoring websites in the UK which is backed by Haymarket maybe you could, you know, phone them and ask for a visit? wink

I think you're wrong, my experience of managed motorways is that they generally work very well. The problem is that people don't like being told what to do and/or having their speed restricted for the "greater good" especially when they can't see the evidence that it is helping.

The dropping from 50 to 40 then back to the NSL for no apparent reason was probably to allow some stationary or very slow traffic ahead of you that you never saw to clear. If the numpty who slammed on the brakes to get down to 50 had applied the same observation skills at that back of that traffic queue then you have a higher chance of an accident and even greater disruption.

BlueMR2

8,643 posts

201 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Clearly, these areas are now so safe, when the roads are empty at night etc the speed limit should swing the other way, 100mph and let people get on with it.

TheFinners

543 posts

126 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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Imagine how much better the roads would be if all the money spent on cameras, unnecessarily cutting speed limits and smart motorways was spent on the real police instead (you know, the ones that are actual human beings). The standards of driving would be much better and money lost from dishing out speed fines to those doing 80 on a clear, dry and quiet motorway could be regained dealing with all of the tw@t's who sit in the middle lane playing with their phones.

BlueMR2

8,643 posts

201 months

Sunday 19th April 2015
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slowhand99 said:
These limits are also imposed when a stretch of motorway exceeds its emissions limit. Hence no apparent reason for the hold up. Tell me I'm wrong wink
Nothing like a few hundred million £ and years of queues to solve the problem they caused pushing every tom dick and harry into diseasels.

Some diesel owners are going to get a big shock next time the road tax emission laws are changed to cut down on the high levels of pollution.