RE: Mercedes-AMG GT S vs Aston Martin V12 Vantage S
Discussion
ChristAlmighty said:
I know when I'm waiting at the traffic lights, and one of these bulbous AMG efforts pulls alongside, I'll sit comfortable in my warm cocoon of superiority ;-))
To paraphrase Mr Clarkson..."But honestly, you cannot buy an AMG GTS anymore. You just can’t do it. Because one day you’ll be sitting at a set of lights, someone will pull up alongside in an Aston and you will feel hopeless and inadequate, and you will have to kill yourself.”
daytona365 said:
I've always thought of Astons as very expensive, very British, and very cobbled together TVR's........Do they also smell of glue ?.......Whereas the Merc is state of the art perfection in every way. Let's not forget they actually invented 'Das auto' !
So, you'd take the Aston?call me a snob but I would take the AM over the Merc every day. The Merc may be better but it hasn't the sole of the AM. Same as an Audi R8 hasn't the sole of a Ferrari - I have said that elsewhere and been slated for being a car snob! The AM looks amazing, feels raw and is wonderful. The Merc is .... well a Merc - brilliant but in my opinion should stick to being a luxury car. Sometimes better isn't best. Cheers. Snob.
Speedraser said:
^^^This. And Aston's history of engine-building goes back even further -- to the '20s and their small fours that powered, among other things, the wonderful Ulster.
Also, while the current Aston engines are not clean sheet designs as were the Marek straight-6 or V8, they are IMO Aston Martin engines. The current V8 has its own bespoke block, crank, conrods, bearings, pistons, rings, cams, valves, heads, oiling system, etc. -- it shares essentially nothing with the Jaguar engine it was "derived" from. To me, that qualifies it as an Aston engine. The V12 is "based" on the architecture of the Duratec V6, but it is far more than the frequently -- and erroneously -- claimed "two V6s stuck together." The block is designed and built as a V12 from the beginning, as are the crank, cams, etc. Also, and importantly, that V12 has only ever been available in Aston Martins -- no other car has ever been available with it. All of this makes it, IMO, an Aston Martin engine. The idea of an AMG engine that is merely electronically tweaked to make it sound and feel "like an Aston engine," well, just the use of the term "like an Aston Martin engine" really says it all. That would be appalling and nowhere near good enough for a great marque with a long history of making its own engines. A Ferrari wouldn't be a Ferrari with an electronically tweaked AMG engine under the bonnet. Neither would an Aston Martin be an Aston Martin.
About the AMG GT, I was potentially interested in it. IMO, it looks interesting and distinctive, but it's not at all beautiful and simply doesn't make me want it. To those complaining that the Aston's steering wheel isn't pretty, I personally have enjoyed every mile behind the one in my V8V. The cabin is beautifully made with gorgeous materials (and what looks like metal IS metal -- no fakery). More to the point, however, what about the iPad that AMG (and Benz generally) clearly forgot about until it was too late and then glued it to the top of the dash??? That is UGLY.
Your argument is well thought out Speedraser you are wise, I agree with you. Hello from Japan!Also, while the current Aston engines are not clean sheet designs as were the Marek straight-6 or V8, they are IMO Aston Martin engines. The current V8 has its own bespoke block, crank, conrods, bearings, pistons, rings, cams, valves, heads, oiling system, etc. -- it shares essentially nothing with the Jaguar engine it was "derived" from. To me, that qualifies it as an Aston engine. The V12 is "based" on the architecture of the Duratec V6, but it is far more than the frequently -- and erroneously -- claimed "two V6s stuck together." The block is designed and built as a V12 from the beginning, as are the crank, cams, etc. Also, and importantly, that V12 has only ever been available in Aston Martins -- no other car has ever been available with it. All of this makes it, IMO, an Aston Martin engine. The idea of an AMG engine that is merely electronically tweaked to make it sound and feel "like an Aston engine," well, just the use of the term "like an Aston Martin engine" really says it all. That would be appalling and nowhere near good enough for a great marque with a long history of making its own engines. A Ferrari wouldn't be a Ferrari with an electronically tweaked AMG engine under the bonnet. Neither would an Aston Martin be an Aston Martin.
About the AMG GT, I was potentially interested in it. IMO, it looks interesting and distinctive, but it's not at all beautiful and simply doesn't make me want it. To those complaining that the Aston's steering wheel isn't pretty, I personally have enjoyed every mile behind the one in my V8V. The cabin is beautifully made with gorgeous materials (and what looks like metal IS metal -- no fakery). More to the point, however, what about the iPad that AMG (and Benz generally) clearly forgot about until it was too late and then glued it to the top of the dash??? That is UGLY.
Can I ask a really stupid question? If Merc gave Aston their V12 to stick in the next pukka GT is anybody really going to question its credentials?
I genuinely struggle to understand anybody who looks at the top end of Mercs engine range and sniffs at them. Merc produce work of art engines that come fully embued with as much soul history character and pedigree as anybody else and if we put our objective hat then frankly no other f
ker can touch them. Not even Ferrari get within touching distance.
I sometimes think that people forget just who Merc are. Not taxi Merc but the really really serious boys who Merc keep locked away in underground bunkers never allowed to see daylight because they aren't really qualified to live in polite society, only allowed to breed with each other so the generations are continued. SSKs, W186, 196, 300SLs, SLRs, C9s, 190s, 600s, Hammers, 7ltr V12s, added turbos, etc etc etc.
As 99% of the Merc business is so mundane people seem to forget that they retain that 1% then when indulged deals only in relentless mental brutality. And its not precision characterless Teutonic dull superiority but utter fking mental crushingness insane brutality. In many many ways Merc do mental character better than anybody else.
Aston should be rubbing their hands in glee. Aston DNA is big hammer, velvet glove (look I'm being generous in ignoring that their dna is mostly glorious failure and repeatedly setting fire to Good wood) and given that Merc are seemingly about to offer them the biggest hammer on offer then they will be very happy chaps. And given that their future customers, when asked what's under the bonnet will be able to reply "6ltr V12, made by Merc fettled by Cosworth" then I can't imagine too many are going to reply - well that's just st isn't it?
I genuinely struggle to understand anybody who looks at the top end of Mercs engine range and sniffs at them. Merc produce work of art engines that come fully embued with as much soul history character and pedigree as anybody else and if we put our objective hat then frankly no other f
ker can touch them. Not even Ferrari get within touching distance.I sometimes think that people forget just who Merc are. Not taxi Merc but the really really serious boys who Merc keep locked away in underground bunkers never allowed to see daylight because they aren't really qualified to live in polite society, only allowed to breed with each other so the generations are continued. SSKs, W186, 196, 300SLs, SLRs, C9s, 190s, 600s, Hammers, 7ltr V12s, added turbos, etc etc etc.
As 99% of the Merc business is so mundane people seem to forget that they retain that 1% then when indulged deals only in relentless mental brutality. And its not precision characterless Teutonic dull superiority but utter f
king mental crushingness insane brutality. In many many ways Merc do mental character better than anybody else. Aston should be rubbing their hands in glee. Aston DNA is big hammer, velvet glove (look I'm being generous in ignoring that their dna is mostly glorious failure and repeatedly setting fire to Good wood) and given that Merc are seemingly about to offer them the biggest hammer on offer then they will be very happy chaps. And given that their future customers, when asked what's under the bonnet will be able to reply "6ltr V12, made by Merc fettled by Cosworth" then I can't imagine too many are going to reply - well that's just s
t isn't it?All these comments about the AMG leaving you cold, the Aston winning the soul, how many of these commenters have driven either of these cars? It seems like a lot of these commenters are being sucked in by brand perception - and James Bond - as opposed to the actual car and driving experience.
I have taken the GTS for a long drive around some of my regular weekend driving roads. Let me tell you, the car is fantastic and it in no way leaves you cold. It has tonnes of character and is a fantastic machine. For me it just needs the top to go down to add a little bit more drama in spirited but safe driving on regular roads. Top down and I'd have one on order.
I have taken the GTS for a long drive around some of my regular weekend driving roads. Let me tell you, the car is fantastic and it in no way leaves you cold. It has tonnes of character and is a fantastic machine. For me it just needs the top to go down to add a little bit more drama in spirited but safe driving on regular roads. Top down and I'd have one on order.
DJRC said:
Not even Ferrari get within touching distance.
That is a very dangerous thing to be saying on these forums, Merc AMG engines tend to be quite torque biased - doesnt mean they're a better engine than a ferrari, but nor have they ever tried to be like ferrari, its about sounding like a muscle car and behaving like a muscle car just with modern sophistication and refinement, or that's how I see C63/SLS anyway (appreciate SLS is a tad more special mind you)DJRC said:
when asked what's under the bonnet will be able to reply "6ltr V12, made by Merc fettled by Cosworth" then I can't imagine too many are going to reply - well that's just st isn't it?
This point is questionable, as to my knowledge the ONLY engine thats currently within that contract is a v8 replacement for a vantage, or thats certainly what we were led to believe. But as long as aston tweak that engine (v12) sufficiently enough afterwords I'm sure it'll be fine, I think Aston owners would prefer to rev out more than have a wall of torque - that said it is car dependant (i.e. db9 owners may want to cruise more etc). But stick the S65AMG engine in a vanquish with either that 8 speed or a dual clutch, and it'll surely fly the torque is somewhat more than a sledgehammer too! t isn't it?Old man has just got rid of his 3rd Vantage, GTS on the way. The Aston honestly feels 2 generations behind. Gearbox is clunky, lots of knocks etc from suspension and diff. The Aston has bags of character, and there is the kudos of having an Aston. But that kudos means more to other people than someone that has to live with the car day in, day out.
As a car to actually use, the Merc is a significant step up in every area, as it should be given the age of the Aston design. Sounds great to. Strange how Merc/Audi can make these new turbos sound great, but BMW don't seem able to.
As a car to actually use, the Merc is a significant step up in every area, as it should be given the age of the Aston design. Sounds great to. Strange how Merc/Audi can make these new turbos sound great, but BMW don't seem able to.
mattf93 said:
DJRC said:
Not even Ferrari get within touching distance.
That is a very dangerous thing to be saying on these forums, Merc AMG engines tend to be quite torque biased - doesnt mean they're a better engine than a ferrari, but nor have they ever tried to be like ferrari, its about sounding like a muscle car and behaving like a muscle car just with modern sophistication and refinement, or that's how I see C63/SLS anyway (appreciate SLS is a tad more special mind you)DJRC said:
when asked what's under the bonnet will be able to reply "6ltr V12, made by Merc fettled by Cosworth" then I can't imagine too many are going to reply - well that's just st isn't it?
This point is questionable, as to my knowledge the ONLY engine thats currently within that contract is a v8 replacement for a vantage, or thats certainly what we were led to believe. But as long as aston tweak that engine (v12) sufficiently enough afterwords I'm sure it'll be fine, I think Aston owners would prefer to rev out more than have a wall of torque - that said it is car dependant (i.e. db9 owners may want to cruise more etc). But stick the S65AMG engine in a vanquish with either that 8 speed or a dual clutch, and it'll surely fly the torque is somewhat more than a sledgehammer too! t isn't it?DJRC said:
Who mentioned AMG? I mean it's almost like I mentioned a whole load of cars that were 90% pre AMG and half of them damn nr pre-Ferrari existence and a cpl pre Aston for a reason...
Aston aren't going to want non hand built engines are they? Therefore AMG is the way to go. Hence why my reference to AMG. Im just saying Ferrari engines/ AMG engines are very different in character and purpose
Not quite sure of your point?
mattf93 said:
DJRC said:
Who mentioned AMG? I mean it's almost like I mentioned a whole load of cars that were 90% pre AMG and half of them damn nr pre-Ferrari existence and a cpl pre Aston for a reason...
Aston aren't going to want non hand built engines are they? Therefore AMG is the way to go. Hence why my reference to AMG. Im just saying Ferrari engines/ AMG engines are very different in character and purpose
Not quite sure of your point?
The comments about the AMG being 'soulless' are very silly, and really just demonstrate an ill-informed perception and lack of first hand experience of the car - I suspect most of our experts haven't seen one in real life, let alone sat in one, heard one or driven one. If one prefers the aesthetics of an Aston (or any other car) then fair enough but the AMG has no more or less 'soul' than the Aston or any other similar car - once you remove the subjective nonsense, what you have left is a more modern and better developed package with all the advantages that inevitably brings.
Also, after a good couple of hundred miles in a GT S today, I can't imagine another car getting more attention everywhere it went (it was bordering on embarrassing how much attention it draws at some points). The sound, brute feeling and slight uncouthness of the AMG means this car feels very special indeed.
Also, after a good couple of hundred miles in a GT S today, I can't imagine another car getting more attention everywhere it went (it was bordering on embarrassing how much attention it draws at some points). The sound, brute feeling and slight uncouthness of the AMG means this car feels very special indeed.
Palmball said:
The comments about the AMG being 'soulless' are very silly, and really just demonstrate an ill-informed perception and lack of first hand experience of the car - I suspect most of our experts haven't seen one in real life, let alone sat in one, heard one or driven one. If one prefers the aesthetics of an Aston (or any other car) then fair enough but the AMG has no more or less 'soul' than the Aston or any other similar car - once you remove the subjective nonsense, what you have left is a more modern and better developed package with all the advantages that inevitably brings.
Also, after a good couple of hundred miles in a GT S today, I can't imagine another car getting more attention everywhere it went (it was bordering on embarrassing how much attention it draws at some points). The sound, brute feeling and slight uncouthness of the AMG means this car feels very special indeed.
I agree with you on every point except crowd pulling power. Even in my somewhat modest Ferrari - a F430 Spider - I definitely got more attention than driving in either the SLS (extensive drives in them) or in this new GTS (spent an hour or two test driving it) from AMG. I wouldn't be surprised if the GTS turns more heads than the V12S though, despite 'AM' obviously being more of a buzz word than 'Mercedes' or 'AMG' to much of the population.Also, after a good couple of hundred miles in a GT S today, I can't imagine another car getting more attention everywhere it went (it was bordering on embarrassing how much attention it draws at some points). The sound, brute feeling and slight uncouthness of the AMG means this car feels very special indeed.
Not that any of this makes either car better or worse as a car. But it does change the ownership experience, and obviously cars are more likely to turn heads for a reason and this 'head turning ability' is often, but not always, at least somewhat correlated to how special they feel to drive.
I don't understand how Aston Martin are now fitting that 8speed zf gearbox to the rapide and vanquish, but not the other models in the range. Somewhere I heard they said it didn't suit the character of the vantage, but it works in the f type, which is similarly aggressive. Maybe it's too expensive for them?
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