RE: Mercedes E-Class AMG: Market Watch

[Atmospheric]

^That looks, well, just right doesn't it?

[Utterpiffle]

Great article. I can't believe there were only 128 UK w211 E63's though. Anyone know, or can find out how many were estates?

I guess I have quite a rare car...

[Welshbeef]

Great cars nearly went for the S211 superb car - but the service book and an invoice of about £900 for spark plug change put me off somewhat.

[Bladedancer]

Geoffcapes said:

Just bought an E350 AMG Sport Diesel (W212), as I couldn't justify the ruinous MPG, as it's a work car.

Having compared it to the E63, yes the E63 sounds better and goes much quicker from the off. However, in gear, there's not a lot in it as the 350 has a huge amount of Torque.

I'm more than happy with mine, and can get 50 mpg.

However, if I had an oil well at the bottom of my garden I'd get the E63.

Brilliant looking thing but 50mpg? I have W211 estate with the same engine just lower power (320 CDI) and to see 50mpg in that you're talking very gentle constant M-way at 60-ish.

[Bladedancer]

r.g. said:

For me, it's the W211 E63 Estate. No finer seven seat vehicle around, but then I may be a little biased.

That one.
I was recently looking for an estate and W211 E63 was on my list but in the end I've decided it would probably bankrupt me and gone for 320CDI.
I wouldn't touch E55 though. W210 likes rust and comes from M-B cost cutting era and W211 E55 are pre-facelift cars with too many quality problems.

[Utterpiffle]

Bladedancer said:

r.g. said:

For me, it's the W211 E63 Estate. No finer seven seat vehicle around, but then I may be a little biased.

That one.
I was recently looking for an estate and W211 E63 was on my list but in the end I've decided it would probably bankrupt me and gone for 320CDI.
I wouldn't touch E55 though. W210 likes rust and comes from M-B cost cutting era and W211 E55 are pre-facelift cars with too many quality problems.

Pretty much agree with all that. I was looking at the w211 e55 estate after a couple of very successful years with my w210 e55 estate. A friend is a senior tech at a Merc main dealer, and he said steer clear of the w211 e55 as the brakes are some weird electronic design that have a finite number of cycles, then a four figure bill. So instead, Í went for a w211 e63 estate for some £5k more. Man maths in there somewhere.

Although it is quite a bit smaller inside, the w211 e63 is a far better car in every way than the w210 e55, except for the fact that you have to remove half the rear seat to actually use it as an estate. In the w210, you just folded it all flat. This annoys me more than anything in any car I've owned. Stupid design.

[moffat]

jakesmith said:

Having been in an E63 I find this hard to believe

Impossible to believe...

[moffat]

I went on an AMG event and no-one seemed particularly bothered about the E63 estate (W212 5.5V8) that was there, preferring to wait for the SLS, CLS63 and the C63.

As a C63 Coupe owner I took out the E63 and blown away by how much fun it was. Granted it was as agile as the C63, but I really had some laugh out loud moments and much much preferred it to the CLS63 and CL63.

It left a lasting impression on me and I'm not really sure why someone would pick the 'too quiet' M5 over this.

[J4CKO]

Utterpiffle said:

Bladedancer said:

r.g. said:

For me, it's the W211 E63 Estate. No finer seven seat vehicle around, but then I may be a little biased.

That one.
I was recently looking for an estate and W211 E63 was on my list but in the end I've decided it would probably bankrupt me and gone for 320CDI.
I wouldn't touch E55 though. W210 likes rust and comes from M-B cost cutting era and W211 E55 are pre-facelift cars with too many quality problems.

Pretty much agree with all that. I was looking at the w211 e55 estate after a couple of very successful years with my w210 e55 estate. A friend is a senior tech at a Merc main dealer, and he said steer clear of the w211 e55 as the brakes are some weird electronic design that have a finite number of cycles, then a four figure bill. So instead, Í went for a w211 e63 estate for some £5k more. Man maths in there somewhere.

Although it is quite a bit smaller inside, the w211 e63 is a far better car in every way than the w210 e55, except for the fact that you have to remove half the rear seat to actually use it as an estate. In the w210, you just folded it all flat. This annoys me more than anything in any car I've owned. Stupid design.

Think he will be talking about the SBC brakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensotronic_Brake_Co...

It is, apparently not the massive problem it was in the past but still can cost a fair few quid.

I researched this when lookign for a CLS (basically an E Class that has been left in the sun too long) so have ended up with a 2008 registered which is apparently 2009 model year spec.

The 272 (V6) and 273 (V8) had problems as well with the balancer shaft sprockets that wear out and throw the timing out giving various errors, managed to get one that is after the affected engine number.

Then there is the air suspension (optional but turns up on various models of CLS, E class and others), I checked as much as I could for signs and sounds of leakage or drop, but its a potential liability but looks fairly simple in terms of replacing components, each corner is £450 or so and the actual pumps are only £200 or so and located in
the front wing.

Other than that, the later ones dont seem to rust, the bodywork on the one I am getting is pristine so they had obviously sorted the late nineties/early 2000s paint problems by then, the 7G tronic gearbox can give problems and that will be very expensive potentially if it goes wrong, other than that random electrical gremlins and the knowledge it was a sixty grand car 7 years ago and can throw up some big bills.

I avoided looking at AMG versions as there seems to be a massive tax on anything AMG price and parts wise, this has 388 bhp so should be enough for now, its a sort of pipe and slippers E39 M5, plus the consumables are a bit less, brakes are £200 or so for disks and pads front and rear, 18 inch tyres arent that expensive nowadays, mid range stuff is like £120 for the front and £140 for the back.

[Leins]

Dapster said:

Leins said:

I wish a W124 E60 could be bought for a small fraction of its original cost

There one on my list....this one's €90k!!




http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=...

Superb. Price is almost worth it for those seats alone


One I spotted at Essen a few years back beside its Porsche-built cousin:

Edited by Leins on Friday 27th November 10:59

[Ruaraidh_Gamma]

Absolutely love my E63 (M156) S212. Totally brilliant beast. Modern enough to be up-to-date but not so recent as to have the rather dull M157. Masses of space, huge performance, everyday practicality and fabulous noise. What more could I ask for? After 2 C63s and a variety of 350s (C,E & ML), it's the best of all worlds!!

Someone posted above about a 350 vs 63 in gear performance being the same. Err nope. you're making the classic error of comparing the flywheel torque of both engines while forgetting that the gear and axle ratios are hugely different due to one engine being limited to 4600 while the other turns to 7200....

The in-gear performance of the two is massively different: The 350CDI has run out of revs and is grabbing another gear while the 63 is still accelerating hard with another 3000rpm to go to the redline.... The 350 will be 400yds behind by the time the 63 changes up. I've played this game with a mate in a 350 so I know You just can't do 25-135mph in 4th in a 350. Sorry. You can in both C and E63s (though clearly not in the UK!)

Enjoy your AMGs folks, it's winter tyre (aka sideways) time!! )

[Bladedancer]

J4CKO said:

Utterpiffle said:

Bladedancer said:

r.g. said:

For me, it's the W211 E63 Estate. No finer seven seat vehicle around, but then I may be a little biased.

That one.
I was recently looking for an estate and W211 E63 was on my list but in the end I've decided it would probably bankrupt me and gone for 320CDI.
I wouldn't touch E55 though. W210 likes rust and comes from M-B cost cutting era and W211 E55 are pre-facelift cars with too many quality problems.

Pretty much agree with all that. I was looking at the w211 e55 estate after a couple of very successful years with my w210 e55 estate. A friend is a senior tech at a Merc main dealer, and he said steer clear of the w211 e55 as the brakes are some weird electronic design that have a finite number of cycles, then a four figure bill. So instead, Í went for a w211 e63 estate for some £5k more. Man maths in there somewhere.

Although it is quite a bit smaller inside, the w211 e63 is a far better car in every way than the w210 e55, except for the fact that you have to remove half the rear seat to actually use it as an estate. In the w210, you just folded it all flat. This annoys me more than anything in any car I've owned. Stupid design.

Think he will be talking about the SBC brakes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensotronic_Brake_Co...

It is, apparently not the massive problem it was in the past but still can cost a fair few quid.

I researched this when lookign for a CLS (basically an E Class that has been left in the sun too long) so have ended up with a 2008 registered which is apparently 2009 model year spec.

The 272 (V6) and 273 (V8) had problems as well with the balancer shaft sprockets that wear out and throw the timing out giving various errors, managed to get one that is after the affected engine number.

Then there is the air suspension (optional but turns up on various models of CLS, E class and others), I checked as much as I could for signs and sounds of leakage or drop, but its a potential liability but looks fairly simple in terms of replacing components, each corner is £450 or so and the actual pumps are only £200 or so and located in
the front wing.

Other than that, the later ones dont seem to rust, the bodywork on the one I am getting is pristine so they had obviously sorted the late nineties/early 2000s paint problems by then, the 7G tronic gearbox can give problems and that will be very expensive potentially if it goes wrong, other than that random electrical gremlins and the knowledge it was a sixty grand car 7 years ago and can throw up some big bills.

I avoided looking at AMG versions as there seems to be a massive tax on anything AMG price and parts wise, this has 388 bhp so should be enough for now, its a sort of pipe and slippers E39 M5, plus the consumables are a bit less, brakes are £200 or so for disks and pads front and rear, 18 inch tyres arent that expensive nowadays, mid range stuff is like £120 for the front and £140 for the back.

SBC was there on pre-facelift W211 and was a really nasty move by MB - planned obsolescence. You could refurbish it or get another one. Either way that was a fault that shouldn't have occurred in the first place.
For W211 air suspension is standard on the rear axle in the Estate body and on both axles for the V8s (regardless of body). It is expensive as you say if you need to replace bits due to a leak.
Balancer problem I think was specific to 350 (272hp) petrol engine and other variants (ie 280) didn't have it.
Facelift cars seem to be much improved with far fewer electric gremlins.

[J4CKO]

I think people tend to be very wary of the air suspension, I was trying to avoid it, but like you say it comes as standard on V8's but it is meant to be noticeably better than the conventional suspension, after all it isnt like normal suspension doesnt have problems, ok it will be cheaper but if an air spring is £450, the parts to replace a spring and damper arent free and if you dont do it yourself it could end up costing not far off doing an air spring yourself.

You can get conversion kits for about £1500, but for not much more you could replace the whole airmatic system based on £450 a corner plus £200 for a pump. I bet it could be done a lot cheaper sourcing parts from breakers and off the shelf.

I would try and retain it if I could.

[Utterpiffle]

J4CKO said:

I think people tend to be very wary of the air suspension, I was trying to avoid it, but like you say it comes as standard on V8's but it is meant to be noticeably better than the conventional suspension, after all it isnt like normal suspension doesnt have problems, ok it will be cheaper but if an air spring is £450, the parts to replace a spring and damper arent free and if you dont do it yourself it could end up costing not far off doing an air spring yourself.

You can get conversion kits for about £1500, but for not much more you could replace the whole airmatic system based on £450 a corner plus £200 for a pump. I bet it could be done a lot cheaper sourcing parts from breakers and off the shelf.

I would try and retain it if I could.

I have to say I am very impressed with the air suspension. It wafts wonderfully in comfort mode, then drops down and becomes noticeably firmer in one of the sportier modes. Also acts as self levelling if you load the boot. But you are right, I don't look forward to the day something on the suspension breaks...

I've only had my e63 about 8 weeks, so still learning. Fun learning though Already been to Germany three times in it.

Edited by Utterpiffle on Friday 27th November 15:46

[amokwa]

Ruaraidh_Gamma said:

Absolutely love my E63 (M156) S212. Totally brilliant beast. Modern enough to be up-to-date but not so recent as to have the rather dull M157. Masses of space, huge performance, everyday practicality and fabulous noise. What more could I ask for? After 2 C63s and a variety of 350s (C,E & ML), it's the best of all worlds!!

Someone posted above about a 350 vs 63 in gear performance being the same. Err nope. you're making the classic error of comparing the flywheel torque of both engines while forgetting that the gear and axle ratios are hugely different due to one engine being limited to 4600 while the other turns to 7200....

The in-gear performance of the two is massively different: The 350CDI has run out of revs and is grabbing another gear while the 63 is still accelerating hard with another 3000rpm to go to the redline.... The 350 will be 400yds behind by the time the 63 changes up. I've played this game with a mate in a 350 so I know You just can't do 25-135mph in 4th in a 350. Sorry. You can in both C and E63s (though clearly not in the UK!)

Enjoy your AMGs folks, it's winter tyre (aka sideways) time!! )

Spot on !!

[Wills2]

moffat said:

It left a lasting impression on me and I'm not really sure why someone would pick the 'too quiet' M5 over this.

Because they prefer them? I know I do.

[TrickyTrevM5]

Folks

I have been running a W211 E55k as my daily driver for the past two years. Admittedly, it had 50k miles when i bought it and now has 61k (i dont travel far per year in it). But it has had a full service history and continues to do so from the M-B dealer that originally supplied it.

Enough already!

My point is that i have had both M5 and M3s before and the E55 has been a far better used buy. It has been expensive to service (they all are) fuel consumption is dreadful (see earlier comment) but it is a very talented and understated car. It can crunch miles as well as any premium luxury car and can fire down the back lanes with as much gusto as you dare. Mine is also fully debadged so i get the occasional request for a quote for an airport job from my mates.....very funny...

I also think that they have flatlined in terms of depreciation - bad ones will get cheaper and good ones will start rising over the next few years. I think the wagon is the best of all.

So, in summary. Different strokes for different folks but buy smart and take your time in the process - there are a lot of fun cars for you to spend some time in so dont jump too quickly

and good luck

[Mosdef]

I had the M156 in a CLK63 and then had a 2013 (facelift) E63.

Quick summary of my experience after around 20k miles in both cars and why I would always go for the NA engine.

M156 throttle response was in another league compared to the TT. Yes it didn't have the low down torque but it was a driver's engine, something the TT wasn't in any regard.

Fuel economy was actually quite similar between the two and no more than 2-3 mpg difference in town and open road driving.

If you buy a TT E63, make sure you have the LSD. Without that, that car has appalling traction and can't be thrown around.

There is no top end drama with the E63 TT and the engine is frankly a blunt instrumen. Yes it's powerful but there's more to life than torque (this engine also sounds truck like). The engine has little character and doesn't really engage the driver. It felt to me like a super powerful diesel.

My E63 drank a litre of oil every 2k miles and had plenty of electrical gremlins. I was pleased to hand it back actually. The build quality was poor with seats squeaking after around 15k miles, although the Command system was very good indeed. NVH was about as good as a Toyota Corolla and you can feel the car is not made with premium materials. Refinement overall was poor compared to previous E class AMGs.

The gearbox was terrible. Downshifts didn't always happen when I used the paddles and mine completely lost drive on a couple of occasions when pulling out onto busy sections of road. Jackwood had the same issues and interestingly, he went back to a M156 engines car after the TT.

I considered buying a M156 E63 when mine went back but I couldn't find the right car so made another choice but I wouldn't advocate buying the E63 with your own money.

Maybe I had a bad one but I think super saloons should cosset and for the money, it should have felt like a luxury product.

[turboteeth]

As I understand it, a later W211 E55 with the mesh grille mid dash rather than the ribbed lines (2004 on?) have many of the earlier electrical and build quality gremlins fixed.
Mine is a late 04 and whilst I have had a few issues with the airmatic and SBC brakes - for the type of car it is, the reliability seems good and build quality the best I have personally experienced.
Compared by my 06 Cayman, the Merc feels very solid and trustworthy!! It's also cheaper to run and the MPG between the two cars is about the same.

I think you can get the SBC pump replaced for less than a grand and all four airmatic struts and pump done for about £3.5k.
Given the rest of the car is pretty bullet-proof, that's not horrendous.

I've just got 20k out of a set of Continentals - and last year my entire servicing bill was £170 for a C-service at a specialist. Admittedly this year it's been £2.5k with a set of tyres, discs, pads and an airmatic strut, but even so - hardly mega money for what was a £72k car in 2004.

I don't think mine has lost any of it's horses along the way - after 3 years of ownership and 40k miles (bought it at 70k) it's still almost dangerously fast at times - yet still a comfy ride and big enough for big family trips.

I so wanted an RS4 - but I'm glad I couldn't afford one at the time. I am a Merc AMG convert - and love it!

[entwistlecymru]

Like utterpiffle I'm 8 weeks into s211 e63 ownership and I really think it's the perfect blend of power, noise, comfort, space (for 3 kids), presence and loads of other superlatives. Even my uncle who's owned some very tasty motors has looked at selling his NSX and buying an e63, on the basis of a 5 minute spin in my car. I bought the cheapest I could find (just to see how bad it could be!) but it just feels so nicely screwed together. I've never looked at a car as an investment but this one looks to be a future classic - another 5 years and I reckon their rarity and engine will keep values high. That and the fact a certain Jezza C loaded my car with cheese and power slided it around an airport