RE: Jaguar F-Type R AWD: Review

[unpc]

unsprung said:

In the whole of 2015, Jaguar USA sold 4629 F-Types. One wonders about the size of the niche for an AWD version of this car. Still, an uncommonly beautiful car.

Incidentally, to gain a better understanding of scale, you might be interested in how 2015 US sales of the F-Type rank alongside some other indicators.

F-Type
4,629

But actually outsold both the Boxster and the Cayman but not both combined.

[Ecosseven]

hmmm. not sure about this. No doubt it's great car but it's hugely expensive, very heavy (for a sportscar) and you can't really use all the performance on the public road. I'm sure a v6 manual roadster or coupe would be more fun, more of the time. In fact a basic Boxster ticks so many boxes in terms of looks, practicality, and handling for 40% of the price of this model.

[unsprung]

unpc said:

unsprung said:

In the whole of 2015, Jaguar USA sold 4629 F-Types. One wonders about the size of the niche for an AWD version of this car. Still, an uncommonly beautiful car.

Incidentally, to gain a better understanding of scale, you might be interested in how 2015 US sales of the F-Type rank alongside some other indicators.

F-Type
4,629

But actually outsold both the Boxster and the Cayman but not both combined.

I have the impression that the US buyer has a slightly obsessive relationship with the 911, such that the smaller offerings from Porsche are sometimes (and inaccurately) considered less worthy.

[crostonian]

Great car but the price is laughable, must be a huge profit margin in this for JLR when you can buy 550bhp 4wd Range Rover Sport SVR for £10k less complete with every gadget you can imagine and with almost twice as much metal!

[RoverP6B]

It's under 600kg (or 33.8%) more, but point taken... Jaguar must be havin' a larf!

[jl34]

crostonian said:

Great car but the price is laughable, must be a huge profit margin in this for JLR when you can buy 550bhp 4wd Range Rover Sport SVR for £10k less complete with every gadget you can imagine and with almost twice as much metal!

If you had any clue how cars are priced , you would know the total size of the expected market for the car against cost to develop + some profit determines the price. The lower the volume the higher the price has to be to make it profitable . Why do you think a Pagani huayra is mega money ?, it sure doesnt have a £milion of parts in it!

Since the R+D and tooling involved has to be spread over a much smaller number of total sales in order to make it profitable the price has to reflect this. JLR dont have the economies of scale with the F-type that Range Rover enjoys , let alone Porsche in the VAG group, A supercharged v8 4WD low volume car of this quality is never going to be cheap!

That said i still cant think of anything as exciting as this for the money. A Porsche offering is ultimately a sound car but not as thrilling or exclusive to own.

[C7 JFW]

Jaguar have no doubt realised that a number of people will always choose AWD for a daily over RWD. I think it's a great idea.

Shame about the price though. It's very expensive and doesn't actually look it. It looks like 60-70k, but not 100.

[oldtimer2]

unsprung said:

In the whole of 2015, Jaguar USA sold 4629 F-Types. One wonders about the size of the niche for an AWD version of this car. Still, an uncommonly beautiful car.

Incidentally, to gain a better understanding of scale, you might be interested in how 2015 US sales of the F-Type rank alongside some other indicators.

F-Type
4,629

Corvette Coupe
20,757

...

Your comparison would be more useful if it was between products in broadly the same price bracket. It seems to me that $100,000 Jaguar, or Porsche or AMG, products are not aimed at the same customers as a $30,000 Mustang or Corvette. Judging by YouTube reviews of the F-type it looks as though Jaguar has succeeded in Ian Callum's aim of "putting a smile" on the face of its drivers. And the even more expensive SVR version is still to come. It looks as though Jaguar intends the F-type to be its halo product, referring to the use of the F-type's V6 in a succession of new product introductions (eg XE, XF and the forthcoming F-Pace) which journos who have driven them frequently describe as drivers' cars. In these terms I think it is job done on the marketing front. I had wondered if they would launch a 4 cylinder version but, while that would add to volumes, it would also perhaps detract from its current image.

[Johnnytheboy]

FFS stop going on about the weight of cars the whole time!

[xRIEx]

Bencolem said:

What other sports car will give you 550bhp + 4WD for £70k to justify your comment?

Nissan?

The price has probably gone up in recent years though.

[xRIEx]

unsprung said:

In the whole of 2015, Jaguar USA sold 4629 F-Types. One wonders about the size of the niche for an AWD version of this car.

The USA is a more difficult market for European marques given their manufacturing infrastructure and "All-American Patriotism" for their own brands - large economies of scale and cheap prices even on high performance cars. A Corvette starts at $55k, a Mustang about $24k. An F-Type starts at $63k, the R starting from $106k. European cars are mostly for rich people who want to show they're rich.

As a comparison, Porsche sold 10433 911s (all models) in the USA in 2015. For Jag to sell 45% of that figures isn't too bad I reckon.

[unsprung]

oldtimer2 said:

unsprung said:

In the whole of 2015, Jaguar USA sold 4629 F-Types. One wonders about the size of the niche for an AWD version of this car. Still, an uncommonly beautiful car.

Incidentally, to gain a better understanding of scale, you might be interested in how 2015 US sales of the F-Type rank alongside some other indicators.

F-Type
4,629

Corvette Coupe
20,757

...

Your comparison would be more useful if it was between products in broadly the same price bracket. It seems to me that $100,000 Jaguar, or Porsche or AMG, products are not aimed at the same customers as a $30,000 Mustang or Corvette. Judging by YouTube reviews of the F-type it looks as though Jaguar has succeeded in Ian Callum's aim of "putting a smile" on the face of its drivers. And the even more expensive SVR version is still to come. It looks as though Jaguar intends the F-type to be its halo product, referring to the use of the F-type's V6 in a succession of new product introductions (eg XE, XF and the forthcoming F-Pace) which journos who have driven them frequently describe as drivers' cars. In these terms I think it is job done on the marketing front. I had wondered if they would launch a 4 cylinder version but, while that would add to volumes, it would also perhaps detract from its current image.

You're right that nobody here is suggesting that buyers are cross-shopping the F-Type with, say, a Mustang. It is interesting, however, to note how exceedingly small the niche for the F-Type is -- even in a large market such as the US.

I would think that this means that each and every unit sold is essential to Jaguar's US operation. And, thus, it's critical to get the equation of features / content / pricing correct for that market.

A glance at the Corvette sales numbers would indicate that F-Type sales are not unhealthy for its niche.

I'd have to have a serious think about any four-cylinder F-Type. If I had to guess, I'd say that the US market will not support such a combination, much as the US market will not support a BMW with a basic engine and a basic vinyl interior (which was not uncommon in BMW's domestic market).

Edited by unsprung on Tuesday 23 February 20:23

[rb5er]

Looks great and can only imagine its as good as it looks if not better. Win win.

[unsprung]

xRIEx said:

The USA is a more difficult market for European marques given their manufacturing infrastructure and "All-American Patriotism" for their own brands

I may not fully understand your argument, but, at a glance, I would have to disagree.

Ford and General Motors sell something like 5 million units in a total market of 17 million light vehicles. Is that patriotism?

Travel to California -- the bellwether of US motoring -- and see if you can count 100 new US brand cars on the highway. Take plenty of food and water; you'll be there for a while!

Who were Lexus, Infiniti and Acura created for? It wasn't the Europeans who demanded more head room from the Japanese OEMs.

And now Hyundai and Kia are entering the luxury and luxury-performance segments. Again, this is all driven by the desires of US car buyers.

US OEMs have paid an enormous price for their incompetence and hubris. They may have managed to avoid the endgame visited upon the likes of British Leyland, but the damage has been staggering. And it has changed the US buyer seemingly forever.

[unrepentant]

crostonian said:

Great car but the price is laughable, must be a huge profit margin in this for JLR when you can buy 550bhp 4wd Range Rover Sport SVR for £10k less complete with every gadget you can imagine and with almost twice as much metal!

Base price of a 2016 F-Type R Coupe here is $106k

Base price of a 2016 RRS SVR is $111k

Most F-Types R Coupes will sell for around $110k, most SVR's for around $125k.

Not sure why people are quoting sales figures against Mustangs, Camaro's and even 'Vettes. Totally and utterly different market. You can buy a Mustang for $24k list which means $22k! It's a commodity product beloved by rental car companies.

[unsprung]

unrepentant said:

Not sure why people are quoting sales figures against Mustangs, Camaro's and even 'Vettes. Totally and utterly different market. You can buy a Mustang for $24k list which means $22k! It's a commodity product beloved by rental car companies.

If you would read the post, you would be sure.

[unrepentant]

unsprung said:

unrepentant said:

Not sure why people are quoting sales figures against Mustangs, Camaro's and even 'Vettes. Totally and utterly different market. You can buy a Mustang for $24k list which means $22k! It's a commodity product beloved by rental car companies.

If you would read the post, you would be sure.

I did. It's ludicrous. Comparing sales of Jaguar to those of FOMOCO in the US is pointless. Newsflash - They sell more bottles of Budweiser here than they do of Krug Private Cuvee too. The people at Krug are pulling their hair out over it.

[unsprung]

unrepentant said:

unsprung said:

unrepentant said:

Not sure why people are quoting sales figures against Mustangs, Camaro's and even 'Vettes. Totally and utterly different market. You can buy a Mustang for $24k list which means $22k! It's a commodity product beloved by rental car companies.

If you would read the post, you would be sure.

I did. It's ludicrous. Comparing sales of Jaguar to those of FOMOCO in the US is pointless. Newsflash - They sell more bottles of Budweiser here than they do of Krug Private Cuvee too. The people at Krug are pulling their hair out over it.

You are looking for an argument where there is none. And then you appear to be righteous about facts that are universally known.

If you'd like to add value to the thread... Having seen how very much the F-Type is indeed selling into a niche segment... What can we say about this and about the AWD offering of the F-Type?

[unrepentant]

unsprung said:

You're right that nobody here is suggesting that buyers are cross-shopping the F-Type with, say, a Mustang. It is interesting, however, to note how exceedingly small the niche for the F-Type is -- even in a large market such as the US.

I would think that this means that each and every unit sold is essential to Jaguar's US operation. And, thus, it's critical to get the equation of features / content / pricing correct for that market.

A glance at the Corvette sales numbers would indicate that F-Type sales are not unhealthy for its niche.

I'd have to have a serious think about any four-cylinder F-Type. If I had to guess, I'd say that the US market will not support such a combination, much as the US market will not support a BMW with a basic engine and a basic vinyl interior (which was not uncommon in BMW's domestic market).

Jaguar don't have a US operation. They have JLRNA and they sell a lot of Land Rovers, pretty much as many as they can ship and pretty much all at full price. They will also sell a lot of F-Pace cars here. I'm pretty sure they are doing very well indeed here. Sales of XF, XJ and F-Type are small, Jaguar haven't had a volume car in the US since the X-Type. The XE may change that, it may not. I'm not sure it matters that much. As for spec, they have that pretty much spot on.

Plenty of BMW 328i's are sold here with Sensatec interiors and most Mercedes C300's are sold with MB-Tex. Both cars have 4 cylinder engines and sell very well. Jaguar already have the 4 cylinder engine in the XF and XE and LR have sold thousands of Evoques and Disco Sports, all with the same 4 cylinder lump.

[unsprung]

At first my opinion was with the "too heavy and too expensive" brigade. This niche could support an upgraded performance model or track version... but an AWD? I didn't think so.

Then I saw what Bencolem posted, earlier. And I thought, "Hey, somebody had to make a business case for this AWD F-Type." So this person must possess the data to support this argument.

A bit of a stretch for me, intellectually. Because I like to think of the F-Type as belonging to a different sporting tradition. But times have changed. And so must the business cases. This is one that I'll want to see the market results on.