Just buy the cheaper one and remap it....
Discussion
not sure if this has been done on here before but it seems to me to be a common misapprehension that when a model of car has 2 near identical engines but with 2 power outputs - e.g. a Citroen Xsara 2.0 HDi came in 90 & 110 hp versions - some people erroneously believe this is nothing but a remap on the part of the more powerful engine. In that example I think from memory that the injectors are different in some way. My question is, is there actually an example out there where that power gain has been done by a remap rather than physical changes to engine hardware? (and the corollary of this would be that you should be able to remap both engines to pretty much the exact same level at a garage with a rolling road)
For example, the Audi A4 B8 2.0 TDi came in a range of flavours; i.e. 120, 136, 143 & 170. I don't know what the difference between all of the power outputs is but I'm confident it's not just a remap. I'm fairly sure the 170 has the exact same turbo but very beeefy injectors and maybe a couple of other things like a bigger airbox but I don't even have a guess to the difference between the first 3 power outputs.
The same goes for things like the Ford Transit Mk7 with incrementally slightly differing outputs of 2.2 TDCi engines. The new 1.0 ecoboost engines with 100 or 125 hp would be another example.
For example, the Audi A4 B8 2.0 TDi came in a range of flavours; i.e. 120, 136, 143 & 170. I don't know what the difference between all of the power outputs is but I'm confident it's not just a remap. I'm fairly sure the 170 has the exact same turbo but very beeefy injectors and maybe a couple of other things like a bigger airbox but I don't even have a guess to the difference between the first 3 power outputs.
The same goes for things like the Ford Transit Mk7 with incrementally slightly differing outputs of 2.2 TDCi engines. The new 1.0 ecoboost engines with 100 or 125 hp would be another example.
dme123 said:
I believe the 5 cylinder Volvo D3/D4 engines were just software differences. The Polestar map for both engines take them to exactly the same outputs.
Another pair of Volvo engines are the Euro IV compliant 2.4D(163bhp) & the D5(185bhp), this was purely a software difference between these two.
Poopipe said:
In most cases you can probably remap the lower powered example to higher outputs even if there are mechanical differences.
Manufacturer maps are naturally going to be conservative to avoid warranty claims.
And poor environmental conditions. Manufacturer maps are naturally going to be conservative to avoid warranty claims.
In our green and pleasant land with mostly high quality fuels, I would have thought we will be some way north of the minimum design parameters.
The 2011-2015 BMW 114i, 116i, 118i are all the same engine. The 118i has bigger brakes and that's pretty much the only difference. They all remap to the same level.
Same goes for the F30 BMW 320i and 328i engine.
Older Saabs pretty much all had the same engine, with only the highest output versions having a larger turbo. I can't remember the specific models and years, but Google is your friend.
Same goes for the F30 BMW 320i and 328i engine.
Older Saabs pretty much all had the same engine, with only the highest output versions having a larger turbo. I can't remember the specific models and years, but Google is your friend.
dme123 said:
I believe the 5 cylinder Volvo D3/D4 engines were just software differences. The Polestar map for both engines take them to exactly the same outputs.
Different exhaust (D3 Could have a spacesaver, not a D4) and the lag on the D4 is more pronounced, indicating a larger turbo.I'm sure this was the case with some of the VAG 2.0T engines.
The Mk5 Golf GTi Edition 30 had a 2.0 engine fitted with the K04 turbo and delivered 227 bhp. The 8P Audi S3 had an identical engine delivering 265 bhp. The MK2 Leon Cupra also had that engine delivering 236 bhp.
I know they're not models sold under the same brand, but an example of how the same engine sold by the same group is mapped to different levels of power.
The Mk5 Golf GTi Edition 30 had a 2.0 engine fitted with the K04 turbo and delivered 227 bhp. The 8P Audi S3 had an identical engine delivering 265 bhp. The MK2 Leon Cupra also had that engine delivering 236 bhp.
I know they're not models sold under the same brand, but an example of how the same engine sold by the same group is mapped to different levels of power.
poing said:
The Ford 1.0 Turbo is in 3 flavours: 100bhp, 125bhp and 140bhp.
Some people claim various differences but I've yet to see any proof they have any actual mechanical differences, in fact some tuners class them the same for tuning.
gweaver said:Some people claim various differences but I've yet to see any proof they have any actual mechanical differences, in fact some tuners class them the same for tuning.
I spent too long looking into specifications of the different 1.0l ecoboost variants, including checking on the Ford ETIS system and reading their press releases.
In summary:
Engines
100PS - turbine is made of lower grade alloy
125PS - turbine made of Inconel (higher heat tolerances)
140PS - uprated head gasket
Gear ratios
Titanium 125PS - long fifth gear, good for cruising
Zetec S 125PS - shorter fifth gear vs. Titanium
Zetec S/Red/Black 140PS - longer 1st, 2nd, possibly 3rd too, to work around the inadequate torque rating of the IB5 gearbox - they couldn't increase the engine torque without lengthening the ratios, hence the measly 0.4 sec improvement in 0-62 time. Marketed as close ratio or somesuch..
Suspension
Zetec - grandad spec, with 15" wheels - very comfy
Titanium - grandad spec, with 16" wheels - still pretty good
Zetec S/Red/Black - 10mm lower, 12% stiffer front, 6% stiffer front, 11% stiffer torsion beam. 16" 45 profile or 17" 40 profile (now standard), ride not as good as Titanium.
Contrary to popular belief, I don't think there are any suspension differences between the Zetec S and the Red/Black. Also contrary to popular belief, the Red/Black does not have shorter ratios than the standard Zetec S (though fifth is shorter than Titanium). Performance wise, I think the differences between the 125PS and 140PS are marginal, and only really evident at the top of each gear because the 140PS has slightly longer legs.
The Titanium is typically available with a bigger discount than the Zetec S, so if you need rear doors just get the Titanium, save the money, and don't worry about the 0.4s. Or get the Mountune, but beware that the MP135 map is still torque/boost limited in first and second. Even MR165 has restricted boost in first and second.
And while I'm on the subject of maps:
100PS - 0-62: 11.2s
125PS - 0-62: 9.4s
140PS - 0-62: 9.0s
MP135 - 0-60: 8.6s
Look carefully and put your hand up if you think the Mountune MP135 is definitely faster than the 140PS.
TL;DR - Ford were too tight to put a decent gearbox in the Zetec S/Red/Black, and dropped some marketing bull to pull the wool over the eyes of journalists and customers.
It's not just a Ford thing. There's a Corsa Red/Black with a 1.4 Turbo (150PS/220NM) and a 0-60 of 8.9s. That might be the slowest 150PS hot hatch ever.
meehaja said:
Bw 2.0tdi 140 engine has different injectors and turbo from the 170. However, the 170 injectors had problems and the 140 turbos are weak. Some people say a 140 remapped is a better drive than the 170 but I've only driven a remapped 140 so can't comment.
pumpe duse or commonrail?ETA: there's also a few different versions of the 2.0 TDi anyway depending on which generation you're talking about. For example there's 8v and 16v versions, some with DPF's and some without, etc.
Edited by ModernAndy on Sunday 13th March 17:05
I think this thread is beginning to confirm my suspicions. It seems like there have been a few examples given already where it looks like it's just a remap but there are slightly different components including exhausts (although pedantically that does make the engine the same I suppose if all that is different is the exhaust).
poing said:
The Ford 1.0 Turbo is in 3 flavours: 100bhp, 125bhp and 140bhp.
Some people claim various differences but I've yet to see any proof they havek any actual mechanical differences, in fact some tuners class them the same for tuning.
The exhaust turbine wheel is different for a start. I designed the process to make each. The 100bhp is made from IN713c and the 125bhp and 140bhp are made from MARM246. Significant difference in high temp performance and creep resistance between the materials.Some people claim various differences but I've yet to see any proof they havek any actual mechanical differences, in fact some tuners class them the same for tuning.
Mike
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