RE: AlfaWorks GT4C: Driven
Discussion
kambites said:
Great to hear that they've finally managed to get the 4C's chassis to work properly; you've got to wonder how Alfa made such a hash of the standard setup.
Colour me hugely sceptical about this. How has it been achieved? Only vague information about wheel alignment changes and throwing grip at the problem with hard side walled Toyo R888's. That helps prevent tramlining? Seriously?!Also much wider rear wheels on R888's has magically made the transition to oversteer more predicable? Seriously?!!! Perhaps it's predictable in the way that it will now never happen on a smooth dry road but god help you on a bumpy wet one?
The then article goes on to talk about fitting even lower profile tyres....yikes.
From what I've read this car is much further away from decent road manners that an alignment adjustment.
One the other hand, who cares!? It's red, Italian and gorgeous and I'd probably forgive it anything anyway! Only as a second car though.
I must admit I don't get the "it's gorgeous" thing.
I thought even the prototype looked rather ungainly and the production version is just awkward to my eyes. It's so... bulbous; the bonnet line between the front wheels is far too high for a mid-engined car and the way the rear arches continue to rise well forward of the wheels combined with the odd shape of the back of the side windows makes the centre of the car look massively out of proportion with the front and rear. The less said about the headlights the better.
Mind you, the same is true about all the other recent Alfas too. The 159 was a lovely looking car but everything since then (8C aside) has been average at best.
ETA: To be fair to them, I think it's very difficult to make a small transverse mid-engined car look good. Almost all end up looking too high above the engine which pushes the rest of the car out of proportion.
I thought even the prototype looked rather ungainly and the production version is just awkward to my eyes. It's so... bulbous; the bonnet line between the front wheels is far too high for a mid-engined car and the way the rear arches continue to rise well forward of the wheels combined with the odd shape of the back of the side windows makes the centre of the car look massively out of proportion with the front and rear. The less said about the headlights the better.
Mind you, the same is true about all the other recent Alfas too. The 159 was a lovely looking car but everything since then (8C aside) has been average at best.
ETA: To be fair to them, I think it's very difficult to make a small transverse mid-engined car look good. Almost all end up looking too high above the engine which pushes the rest of the car out of proportion.
Edited by kambites on Monday 4th July 08:55
Fallscrim said:
As a Royston local I've seen the development car about a lot, great to see all their hard work has paid dividends.
Could you tell us which roads you used for the images in the article?
I think I've heard it about more than I've seen it. Had no idea this is what they were working towards though.Could you tell us which roads you used for the images in the article?
Autodelta revival.
AR should shove unfinished products to AW and let them finish them up to specs as described in the article. Or make bespoke / tailor made articles. I can only imagine that to shave off some awkward money and make it a better proposition for a market that isn't too big.
AR should shove unfinished products to AW and let them finish them up to specs as described in the article. Or make bespoke / tailor made articles. I can only imagine that to shave off some awkward money and make it a better proposition for a market that isn't too big.
In a strange coincidence I overtook and was then soundly overtaken by this very car on my way into work this morning.
It was one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen in the flesh.
So so pretty.
I gave the driver a thumbs up as he blitzed past me but not sure he noticed.
In case he reads this I was in the blue poverty Porka (986 Boxster) with LeMans bumper sticker still attached.
If the boys in Royston have sorted the handling then it looks a bargain at £80k.
I now want one very badly.
It was one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen in the flesh.
So so pretty.
I gave the driver a thumbs up as he blitzed past me but not sure he noticed.
In case he reads this I was in the blue poverty Porka (986 Boxster) with LeMans bumper sticker still attached.
If the boys in Royston have sorted the handling then it looks a bargain at £80k.
I now want one very badly.
Horrifically overpriced.
A remap - £500?
Coilovers? OK let's say the Ohlins cost £5k on their own.
OZ Wheels are about £1750, with R888 tyres, another £1200.
Exhaust system? Can be custom made for about £1500 at EMP Performance.
So we have maybe, let's round well up and say £10k of mods, which they are charging over £30k for.
No.
A remap - £500?
Coilovers? OK let's say the Ohlins cost £5k on their own.
OZ Wheels are about £1750, with R888 tyres, another £1200.
Exhaust system? Can be custom made for about £1500 at EMP Performance.
So we have maybe, let's round well up and say £10k of mods, which they are charging over £30k for.
No.
xjay1337 said:
Horrifically overpriced.
A remap - £500?
Coilovers? OK let's say the Ohlins cost £5k on their own.
OZ Wheels are about £1750, with R888 tyres, another £1200.
Exhaust system? Can be custom made for about £1500 at EMP Performance.
So we have maybe, let's round well up and say £10k of mods, which they are charging over £30k for.
No.
Since when do manufacturers not make money on things? A remap - £500?
Coilovers? OK let's say the Ohlins cost £5k on their own.
OZ Wheels are about £1750, with R888 tyres, another £1200.
Exhaust system? Can be custom made for about £1500 at EMP Performance.
So we have maybe, let's round well up and say £10k of mods, which they are charging over £30k for.
No.
xjay1337 said:
Horrifically overpriced.
A remap - £500?
Coilovers? OK let's say the Ohlins cost £5k on their own.
OZ Wheels are about £1750, with R888 tyres, another £1200.
Exhaust system? Can be custom made for about £1500 at EMP Performance.
So we have maybe, let's round well up and say £10k of mods, which they are charging over £30k for.
No.
So lets say you personally went and spent those figures, will you end up with the same end product? Possibly, by fluke. Unless you are privvy to their exact specs and setup, you aren't going to hit the same sweet spot. You'd just be another "tuner" hoping to improve things by making changes. I guess what I'm trying to say in a long winded way is, you are paying for their investment in R&D. Without the benefit of their testing, anybody can throw different products at the car and some might work well, others not so. As anyone who has ever gone down that route with any car will know, unless you are following a well proven route it can end up with you throwing good money after bad. A remap - £500?
Coilovers? OK let's say the Ohlins cost £5k on their own.
OZ Wheels are about £1750, with R888 tyres, another £1200.
Exhaust system? Can be custom made for about £1500 at EMP Performance.
So we have maybe, let's round well up and say £10k of mods, which they are charging over £30k for.
No.
PoopahScoopah said:
So lets say you personally went and spent those figures, will you end up with the same end product? Possibly, by fluke. Unless you are privvy to their exact specs and setup, you aren't going to hit the same sweet spot. You'd just be another "tuner" hoping to improve things by making changes. I guess what I'm trying to say in a long winded way is, you are paying for their investment in R&D. Without the benefit of their testing, anybody can throw different products at the car and some might work well, others not so. As anyone who has ever gone down that route with any car will know, unless you are following a well proven route it can end up with you throwing good money after bad.
I full well know about wasting money in the unknown :-)The point is the changes are to the suspension and alignment settings which are very cheap to change. I'm sure that any 4C would be suitably brilliant with the same sort of suspension modifications.
They are charging that amount of money because they can, it seems odd to spend 3/4 the cost of the car, on the car, when really, it's got different suspension, a remap and some fancy coilovers.
That doth not make a £35k package.
If you owned a GTR, can go to Litchfield and buy a Stage 5 kit for £15k (that's two new turbos, two new fuel pumps, downpipes, EC tuning, etc), their suspension package, including rollbars, tubular arms and custom toe links, their intercooler package, and their Alcon brake upgrade, for less than what this company are asking.
Yes, the GTR is a far more "modified friendly" platform, but that doesn't change the fact that it is just bolt-on changes for the 4c and you aren't really getting very much for your money - It represents incredibly poor value.
xjay1337 said:
Horrifically overpriced.
A remap - £500?
Coilovers? OK let's say the Ohlins cost £5k on their own.
OZ Wheels are about £1750, with R888 tyres, another £1200.
Exhaust system? Can be custom made for about £1500 at EMP Performance.
So we have maybe, let's round well up and say £10k of mods, which they are charging over £30k for.
No.
Isn't it £30k with all the carbon bits as well? With the carbon bits costing ~£8k? How are they achieving the geometry changes, does that need new components as well? A remap - £500?
Coilovers? OK let's say the Ohlins cost £5k on their own.
OZ Wheels are about £1750, with R888 tyres, another £1200.
Exhaust system? Can be custom made for about £1500 at EMP Performance.
So we have maybe, let's round well up and say £10k of mods, which they are charging over £30k for.
No.
Really like the look of the kit, I think the sweet spot for the road would be the exhaust, remap, suspension and geometry changes, should be doable for £10/12k?
saxy said:
I just never got this car. Super hardcore carbon tub with an Econ car engine and gearbox. It's slower than a Guilia, MUCH less practical and no cheaper. On the other hand this car has no boot, but a Cayman has 2.
"2 seat sports car in more expensive and less practical than family saloon shocker". See also Lotus / Toyota Corolla. Funny that.
tankplanker said:
sn't it £30k with all the carbon bits as well? With the carbon bits costing ~£8k? How are they achieving the geometry changes, does that need new components as well?
Really like the look of the kit, I think the sweet spot for the road would be the exhaust, remap, suspension and geometry changes, should be doable for £10/12k?
Yeah, £22k without the carbon bits.Really like the look of the kit, I think the sweet spot for the road would be the exhaust, remap, suspension and geometry changes, should be doable for £10/12k?
Still well over twice what you could do it for yourself cheaper lol
It always seems the same comments are made when companies modify a car and then sell their package.
They need to make money... take into account the R&D time and money, fitting of parts, cost of parts.
Also consider that the package is being sold to a small pool of potential customers. Bigger market with more sales, then possibly prices could come down. One person mentioned that Litchfield GTR packages were cheaper. If you consider how long they have been doing it and probably to a bigger market, then it's easy to see how their costs may be lower.
No one is being forced to buy the package.
I would personally love to see what Lotus could do with the 4C if they were given one and told to go do their thing on it. (Or why on earth is Alfa not making improvements. It is meant to be a driving flagship of their range!)
The 4 pot turbo and auto gearbox ruins any interest I'd have in the 4C though.
They need to make money... take into account the R&D time and money, fitting of parts, cost of parts.
Also consider that the package is being sold to a small pool of potential customers. Bigger market with more sales, then possibly prices could come down. One person mentioned that Litchfield GTR packages were cheaper. If you consider how long they have been doing it and probably to a bigger market, then it's easy to see how their costs may be lower.
No one is being forced to buy the package.
I would personally love to see what Lotus could do with the 4C if they were given one and told to go do their thing on it. (Or why on earth is Alfa not making improvements. It is meant to be a driving flagship of their range!)
The 4 pot turbo and auto gearbox ruins any interest I'd have in the 4C though.
One of the main criticisms of the 4C is that the power delivery is very much a lump of mid-range torque, with peak power at too low an rpm so revving it out is not encouraged
Can't help but think the remap would be better if it just kept the peak torque the same but extended it further into the rev range. Engines with more torque than power don't do it for me
Can't help but think the remap would be better if it just kept the peak torque the same but extended it further into the rev range. Engines with more torque than power don't do it for me
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