The Best ///M/Barge/General Rant/Look at this/O/T(Vol XVIII)

[Phil Dicky]

L100NYY said:

Talking of Porsche 968 Clubsports, Griffs and retro magazine covers put me in mind of these and many a happy memory of pouring over these issues and many others........









This one featured a group test of Grale vs Sierra Cosworth vs Legacy Turbo

Happy days reading Performance Car.......wish I had kept all mine had years worth of them.

[Phil Dicky]

Chris Stott said:

p1stonhead said:

That interior is insane!

Aren't TVR's simply insane by definition?

I remember something I read in one of the car mags about Wheelers dog biting a piece out of a model and they subsequently incorporated it in to the styling.

Dog was called Ned the car the Chimaera and it was the front indicator housing

[Cheburator mk2]

stickylabels said:

^^^^^^ Always had a hankering for one of those

Sticky.

I would say that they are not very nice to drive in standard form - understeer followed by snap oversteer. Also the four corners feel like they are part of a truly independent suspension - pardon the pun. Also, it would really benefit from a 6th gear for long distance cruising. Once properly set up though, they are an absolute hoot to drive. At the moment, the Z4MC is the far better steer, and dare I say it, equally striking and unique. Had both, miss them terribly...

[Chris Stott]

L100NYY said:

Always hankered after a 968CS but another one on my list has always been a 924 CGT. Achingly desirable to me but too dear and precious for what I would use it for.

A very good rep would do me just fine

https://m.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C924525

The real thing... not as expensive as I expected.

https://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Po...

[ferrisbueller]

Another on the list of cars owned by friends or myself which has subsequently become unobtanium. Still, better to have loved and lost etc.

[Leins]

Chris Stott said:

The real thing... not as expensive as I expected.

https://www.jzmporsche.com/used-vehicle-details/Po...

These seem to be on a bit of a rollercoaster in terms of asking prices. Back in 2014 they were hovering around the £30-40k mark, then quickly jumped to £60-70k, which seemed to coincide with Magnus Walker buying one. However they fell back again, with this one (and a few others) for sale last summer:

Diesel Meister said:

Leins - I missed or forgot that you had a B5. Seriously nice. Any tweaks, or as factory

Thanks DM, have it about two and a half years now. I'm the third owner and it's a standard unmodified car. Plenty quick enough for my usage, although I know they can be transformed into absolute weapons with a few changes. I still get Audi to look after it, and it'll be heading up to Belfast for its annual in a month or two

[Chris Stott]

I read somewhere that Derek Bell has one - it was a gift from Porsche after one of his Le Mans victories. He still drives it and said he loves it so much he'd never sell it.

I don't think I've ever seen one 'in the flesh'.

[NomduJour]

Bell’s is a GTS.

[Chris Stott]

I stand corrected!

[Cheburator mk2]

The thing about a Carrera GT/GTS is that a 944T will do everything and then some for a 1/3 of the price. Still kicking myself for not buying one when offered at £12k - 944Ts were £9k then.

A friend has a 944T with a 16v head - 550bhp in a daily driver, which is as docile as it gets thanks to MoTec and other trick bits. The look on the faces of GT car drivers as he screams past them is priceless...

[Leins]

This is Bell's CGTS, plus a few other 924 pics from the Silverstone Classic 2015:

[Output Flange]

Cheburator mk2 said:

A friend has a 944T with a 16v head - 550bhp in a daily driver,

Let's not let this go unnoticed - he's got a 944T with 550bhp?

[L100NYY]

Indeed, Derek's 924 is a GTS but what a thing it is and one of my favourites.

Ref Z3M: Spent a day in one a few weeks ago. Potential is the word that sprung to mind which reaffirms Chebs comments.

[Cheburator mk2]

Output Flange said:

Let's not let this go unnoticed - he's got a 944T with 550bhp?

a lot of work has been done - wet Darton sleeves, Pankl rods, JE Pistons, custom exhaust etc... But the secret is in the head - the Porsche 16v head as found in the 928, 944S/S2 and 968 is a work of art - straight off the 962 racing programme so it flows extremely well. He runs 9.5:1 compression, so it feels OK off boost too. But between 4000 and 7000 is where the fun stuff happens...

[clubsport]

Herr Bell's GTS is regular not CS variant.

He explains how he came to own it in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WAeB6oL0qw

I was fortunate to be at this test day and got to drive quite a few of the cars.

It was literally surreal when DB hands you the keys and asks you if you will drive for him in the next sequence!

Stupidly and with much regret, I turned down the offer to drive his GTS that day as it was not running well and I didn't want to potentially add to any issues...Doh!

[clubsport]

It's hard to relate to, I recall driving a 2.7 RS touring at Brands around that time ( 2008) the owner had purchased it for £18k in 1990!

[stickylabels]

Cheburator mk2 said:

I would say that they are not very nice to drive in standard form - understeer followed by snap oversteer. Also the four corners feel like they are part of a truly independent suspension - pardon the pun. Also, it would really benefit from a 6th gear for long distance cruising. Once properly set up though, they are an absolute hoot to drive. At the moment, the Z4MC is the far better steer, and dare I say it, equally striking and unique. Had both, miss them terribly...

I think this is the conundrum of car choice. Not many cars do it all. By that, precision AND theatre so often seem to be a choice rather than go hand in hand. There are of course (in my view!) exceptions to that, but my experience of 944 S2 I sold to buy the Cerbera is the S2 had lovely
natural feeling steering and you could place the thing exactly where you wanted it, REALLY leaning on the front end and firing out the other end. Did the NC500 over 4 days (827 miles!), drove like I stole it and still got nearly 30mpg to boot, BUT!! It didn't excite because for me the (dare I say it) engine although effective enough didn't have a repertoire, it didn't have any real soul, despite playing around with filters, exhausts, Promax chip etc.

The Cerbera, perhaps in a way like the Z3M, is entertaining and sometimes badly behaved but the want is there, and like you I would miss it if I ever sold it!

Sticky.

[clubsport]

cmoose, I appreciate your point of view.

I also appreciate there is a certain satisfaction in developing a 911 to perform beyond it's original specification, as it left the factory.

This is the thing, as well as the thrill of driving them, so many rare Porsche have more than paid for themselves, this is unlikely to be the case with a decent "replica"? Over the last decade, apart from the initial purchase price, it has been more cost effective to own the real deal than a clone?

CGT is an incredible car, but apart from purchase price, running costs and usability have held it's value back to a certain extent in my view.

[clubsport]

Fair points, I am not looking to disagree for the sake of it, but there is something inherently more special and emotive about the real deal. Porsche knew what they were doing at that moment in time. That is part of what you are experiencing

among other Pork, I have previously used a 3.2CS and 993RS as real daily drivers, leaving them everywhere and tracking them. Maybe I have that out of my system? As I don't know that I would want to do that these days, with the mix of congestion and 4x4's everywhere. In fact I choose not to!

There is actually something nice about having an extreme car for special drives, where you really appreciate the overall experience. I am sure even a Chateau Lafite Pauillac might lose it's novelty if you had it as vin de table?

[Diesel Meister]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

My experience of truly great cars is limited, but I do agree. Original is best but cars are to be driven, even if enjoymrntbof them is not strictly speaking limited to that purpose. You almost need to be able to buy some of these examples twice over given the pension fund investment grade values - something of a replica makes sense unless your name is Bruce Wayne (or Warren / Bill / Carlos / Mark etc.)

Leins - tidy. Always liked the look and the idea. Slight soft spot dye chief having had an early S4 avant (torque everywhere but loved revs and sounded great to my ears). Only suspension Miss on that but a nice all rounder it not as much of a hooligan his R33

944 and 968 are lovely cars (and C GT / GTS 924s). I still have a mild prejudice against lack of cylinders but the dynamics and solidity remain seductive despite inflation.

Love me a CGT - usability aside it just appeals more strongly than its subtle looks might suggest. Perhaps because of that understated elegance and purpose...