Tuning box long term?

[liner33]

The problem is people think they are buying a custom remap for their car when in truth in 90%+ of cases they are buying a generic map for "a" car, this car may have never been close to a dyno for proper checking and calibration and its settings may not be ideal for your car , but people are happy to pay £300 plus for someone to spend 15 minutes flashing one of these maps on and telling them how much power they now have.

Whereas buying a tuning box and getting it checked on a dyno so you can make sure the fuelling is correct and there is no knock is considered the more reckless option.

FWIW my Merc did 60k with its tuning box on and according to the mot app is now on over 190,000 miles and still on the road a failed engine would have written it off long ago

[MrBarry123]

I've always perceived them to be a st generic remap in a box however one which avoids the flag which could affect your warranty; this being the only reason they are growing in popularity and not because they are superior in any way to a remap.

If you want more power, go to a reputable tuner.

[Dave Hedgehog]

nunpuncher said:

The DTUK boxes are well regarded on the Golf R forum. They obviously don't achieve quite the same level as a proper remap from an accomplished tuner but the DTUK box avoids the TD1 flag that comes with a proper remap resulting in warranty issues.

i have been told by my senior audi tech that VAG on their latest cars can pick up that an external box has been used, some reading discrepancy sets a flag

[lchad96]

I have a TMC motorsport tuning box on my 2012 Golf mk6 (1.4 Turbo, 122bhp version with DSG). This box connects to the camshaft position sensor, boost pressure sensor, manifold pressure sensor it's now meant to be running at around 150-160bhp.
Running on setting 6/7 of 9 with Shell V Power or Tesco 99. Usually Tesco 99 as it's 110.9 a litre compared to 126.8 for Shell V Power.

From when the power used to drop off at like 4,250 RPM it now just keeps pulling to the red line and very impressed by it. Considering I managed to get it off eBay that had been used for a couple of months for £100 from the usual price of £350.


A little weird I know but I actually got it dyno'd standard 2 days after getting it and it pulled 151bhp?!? It was defiantly standard from new, as it was a company car before me and it was owned by my uncle.

Edited by lchad96 on Thursday 22 September 09:34

[Leo-RS]

r11co said:

Multi-channel devices that intercept ECU signals and replace them with alternative values are doing exactly same job as a remap (without the 'hard' changes to the ECU parameters) rather than just fooling the ECU into throwing more fuel at the engine by fiddling with the fuel-pressure sensor output.

The best types connect to boost sensor and each individual fuel injector as well as RPM sensing. Not cheap, but they have a resale value compared to a remap which is lost with the car and often devalues it.

Tuning boxes work first and foremost by manipulating the boost pressure sensors to read low. In turn, they rely upon the standard ECU noticing the 'lower levels' of boost now being recorded in the requested vs actual boost tables and auto adjusting the WG duty cycle in order to try and meet the requested boost figures.

For example, in a standard car...

Requested boost pressure = 1.1 bar
Actual boost pressure = 1.1 bar

Turbo is meeting the requested requirements.

Now fit a tuning box, ECU is still working as standard...

ECU Requested boost pressure = 1.1 bar
Actual boost pressure initially measured by ecu = 0.8 bar
Corrected boost pressure to meet requested boost pressure = 1.1 bar

Real boost pressure = 1.4 bar.

ECU is still reading 1.1 bar actual but the turbo is now producing 1.4 bar due to the manipulation (-0.3bar) from the boost sensors.

Now we have an understanding of how tuning boxes actually work and how they extract more power, let's talk about fuelling. Cast your mind back to your school days and your old physics lessons, what happens when you increase pressure? Yup, you increase temperature. In this case, the most important aspect of keeping an engine safe is to control your EGT's (Exhaust Gas Temps) - you run these too hot and things melt, pistons melt, cylinders run into detonation.

Now, your standard ECU has fuelling tables written based upon standard parameters, it's only expecting to see 1.1 bar of boost pressure and the associated EGT's that come along with that 1.1 bar of boost pressure. You ask 1.4 bar from the turbo, you NEED to richen the fuel mixture, you NEED to control these now hotter EGT's. The standard fuel tables however will still be seeing 1.1 bar but the EGT's will be rising off the scale as they are not being corrected by written fuelling paramaters within the ECU (Something that a remap will do).

Fortunately, modern day ECU's have EGT limit safeguard protection measures that will inhibit performance by going into a protection mode, the ECU will notice the high EGT readings and start to fuel dump in order to cool them down and protect the engine, the ECU will automatically pull out boost and timing and they will richen the AFR mixture.

This is what the tuning boxes are reliant upon, taking advantage of the safety features of the standard ECU's.

Going further, let's say the EGT limit for your engine is set at 975c and with your standard car you can do a 0-150mph acceleration run and top out at 925c with 1.1 bar of boost pressure. Now you fit a tuning box and the turbo is now producing 1.4 bar, you do the same 0-150mph run and at around 130mph or so, you reach the 975c and its temp is still increasing as you accelerate through to 150mph, the ECU is doing its best to protect your engine by richening the mixture, pulling out boost and timing and it manages to get the EGT back down to 975c by the time you come off the throttle at 150mph.

You've run into protection issues between 130-150 and the car was not performing at optimum due to the ECU having to step in and safeguard the engine.

Now go see a tuner, remap the car and do the same 0-150mph test, the map wont allow you to get near the 975c limit, the tuner will write his map so that its richening the mixture throughout the rev range so the EGT's are always in control and that EGT protection maps never kick in. The car accelerates better through the whole 0-150mph range and is always safe.

That's the difference between a remap and a tuning box in simple terms. Adding fuelling sensors and manipulating their output does not work in the same way as the boost pressure sensors as fuelling requirements are a lot more sensitive, changing continuously based upon EGT and inlet temps. You want to manipulate the fuel readings to richen the mixture, you lose performance in certain rpm/temp ranges, you want to lean out the fuelling to increase power, you run too hot.

Log the lambda/AFR readings of a remapped Golf R on a dyno and then log the Lambda/AFR readings on a tuning box Golf R on the dyno and there will be a hell of a difference. AFR on the remapped Golf R will be running at a nice optimum 12, AFR on a tuning box Golf R and you'll be running a lean 13+

So no, tuning boxes do not work in the same way as properly written recalibrations


Edit... In addition, tuning boxes will not remove speed limit restrictions, proper recalibrations will. I see the benefit of tuning boxes, they have come on leaps and bounds but I certainly wouldn't be running one on the autobahns or around any race tracks where you will get those EGT's high. For day to day and the odd blast along the motorway, they are fine but let's stop the nonsense that they work and are as good as properly tuned recalibrated cars, they're not. They come with risks and the whole TD1 thing is a bit of a red herring, tuners can now reset ECU flash counts to remove traces of tunes should need be.

Edited by Leo-RS on Thursday 22 September 10:38

[Ozzie Osmond]

caelite said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

OldGermanHeaps said:

Short term tuning boxes are awesome, just get shot before borkage gets expensive.

Precisely. Great way to destroy a car.

It depends entirely on the aggresivness of the tune, quality of fuel & state of the stock tune.

You forgot to mention the knowledge/competence, or lack of it, of the monkey doing the "tuning". That's the real issue.

[DottyMR2]

Leo-RS said:

Knowledge that got dropped

Pretty much thread closed after that, move along people, nothing to see here.

[liner33]

DottyMR2 said:

Leo-RS said:

Knowledge that got dropped

Pretty much thread closed after that, move along people, nothing to see here.

Hardly, some knowledge but with plenty of inaccuracies as well but no point arguing on the net

Custom maps are clearly better than a tuning box but very few people custom map , as said most are generic flash maps by some bloke with a laptop and cable who has zero technical knowledge

[r11co]

Leo-RS said:

a lot.

Good write up, and I am not disputing any of it, but none of it takes into account that some tuning boxes can and do calibrate fuelling to match increased boost, the basic premise of your argument being that they don't.

An interesting offshoot of the performance tuning box industry, but one that is seldom talked-about in the UK because there is little-to-no demand for them, are plug-in boxes to allow vehicles to run on E85 ethanol pump-fuel. They are intended to re-calibrate fuelling, partly to regulate EGT because of the different properties of ethanol, in the way you say plug-in boxes don't do?

Edited by r11co on Thursday 22 September 12:46

[DottyMR2]

liner33 said:

DottyMR2 said:

Leo-RS said:

Knowledge that got dropped

Pretty much thread closed after that, move along people, nothing to see here.

Hardly, some knowledge but with plenty of inaccuracies as well but no point arguing on the net

Custom maps are clearly better than a tuning box but very few people custom map , as said most are generic flash maps by some bloke with a laptop and cable who has zero technical knowledge

Depends who you go to, just like it depends on who you go to for any job you want done alters the quality of the end product.

Generic maps aren't just made up off the top of their head. Yes a lot of these maps that are then distributed through franchise network aren't custom made to your car but they used a development car, they don't just make it up blindly as they go along. So the map has seen plenty of dyno time and tweaking, then released as a new map for a standard car. It's not perfect but it still covers all the issues a tuning box doesn't.

Those generic maps are designed to go on a standard car, or a car with specific mods. So it's within a range of tolerance yes, just like the map on your standard car from the factory is too. They are generic maps not specific to every car that rolls out the factory.

[sprinter11]

I've used a dtuk tuning box on a 64 golf 2.0gtd and it worked brilliant, we then had it swapped over to a 2012 e350 cdi 265 and it didn't like work so well, felt really harsh despite playing around with all the settings, had the car mapped after.

Lastly we used it on a 2008 335d and it just didn't feel right at all. it obviously increased power etc but power delivery wasn't great. Had the car mapped now and its brilliant.

[DottyMR2]

r11co said:

Good write up, and I am not disputing any of it, but none of it takes into account that some tuning boxes can and do calibrate fuelling to match increased boost, the basic premise of your argument being that they don't.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 22 September 11:29

Link to one of these boxes? I'd be interested to read up about them as that's a leap forward for tuning boxes to be able to have the exact same results as a remapped ECU instead of just fudging sensor figures and relying on the car adjusting.

[liner33]

DottyMR2 said:

Depends who you go to, just like it depends on who you go to for any job you want done alters the quality of the end product.

Generic maps aren't just made up off the top of their head. Yes a lot of these maps that are then distributed through franchise network aren't custom made to your car but they used a development car, they don't just make it up blindly as they go along. So the map has seen plenty of dyno time and tweaking, then released as a new map for a standard car. It's not perfect but it still covers all the issues a tuning box doesn't.

Those generic maps are designed to go on a standard car, or a car with specific mods. So it's within a range of tolerance yes, just like the map on your standard car from the factory is too. They are generic maps not specific to every car that rolls out the factory.

Absolutely but when you start pushing up boost, changing fueling and timing those tolerance become much more narrow, generic maps are just that generic.

The fact that factory maps have such a wide tolerance is the reason remaps are possible.

[Leo-RS]

liner33 said:

DottyMR2 said:

Leo-RS said:

Knowledge that got dropped

Pretty much thread closed after that, move along people, nothing to see here.

Hardly, some knowledge but with plenty of inaccuracies as well but no point arguing on the net

Custom maps are clearly better than a tuning box but very few people custom map , as said most are generic flash maps by some bloke with a laptop and cable who has zero technical knowledge

Plenty of inaccuracies? Please elaborate what is and what isn't accurate in my post? That's exactly how tuning boxes work with the manipulation of sensors and reliance of inbuilt ecu protection measures to stop the engines from grenading.

With regards to your last statement, what has custom tuning got to do with this discussion? A lot of big tuners will generic flash to a Stage 1 level so I don't see your point? That generic remap will have once upon a time been tested and properly calibrated on a donor car so its hardly a guy with a cable writing off the cuff remaps on customer cars. it's just a distributer loading in a map (Tried, tested and safe though)

You shouldn't really need to fully customise a map unless there are hardware changes to the car which change the flow characteristics, namely Stage 2 tuning and onwards.

On a Stage 1 tune (Software only), a tuner will map a donor car, make it safe and then save that file. They may back off certain parameters so it's running at say 95% and then they will distribute that generic tune around their network of dealers to load into other cars. APR / Revo etc all do this and nothing at all unusual or unsafe about this practice.

Edited by Leo-RS on Thursday 22 September 11:57

[r11co]

DottyMR2 said:

Link to one of these boxes?

I mentioned AC Schnitzer earlier in the thread - you can read up on them yourself if you want.

There is at least one other manufacturer using the same technology as AC S for vehicles other than BMW/MINI but I cannot recall their name off the top of my head.

If the extent of your knowledge and experience of tuning boxes is the mass market brands advertised in the back of car magazines and the cheap clones sold on ebay then I can understand why you would be prejudiced against them though.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 22 September 11:55

[DottyMR2]

r11co said:

DottyMR2 said:

Link to one of these boxes?

I mentioned AC Schnitzer earlier in the thread - you can read up on them yourself if you want.

There is at least one other manufacturer using the same technology as AC S for vehicles other than BMW but I cannot recall their name off the top of my head.

If the extent of your knowledge and experience of tuning boxes is the mass market brands advertised in the back of car magazines and the cheap clones sold on ebay then I can understand why you would be prejudiced against them though.

All they ever say is "these boxes integrate more into your electronics to stop engine warning lights and excessive fuel consumption".

Where did you read up about these boxes and all the technical data on how they work? I'm not going to run around looking this up to prove your point, if you want to prove your point please provide reference material to back it up.
People who just say "well look it up yourself" just come across as not really knowing the details and buying into the marketing from these companies. Surely if you are well versed and have researched these, you could provide sources for this knowledge. I'm open to being converted but I know people who used DTUK tuning boxes (always touted as great) and it made the car look like a 1900s smelting factory with the smoke plowing out the back and it ruined their MPG. (i.e. the tuning box worked EXACTLY as state above by Leo)

So if you're going to change my mind on the internet you'll have to provide facts rather than getting pissy and throwing toys around to try and convince me.

[Baldchap]

I had a Dragon tuning box (I think the same company became DTUK in later years) on my PD130 back in 2005, thrashed it for best part of 100k over three years and the car never missed a beat. It went pretty well too.

Anecdotal to the max, but that car had a hard life and nothing broke (at least nothing that the dealer didn't break at service time!). It also had a warranty if anything did. Horses for courses.

[r11co]

DottyMR2 said:

Where did you read up about these boxes and all the technical data on how they work? I'm not going to run around looking this up to prove your point, if you want to prove your point please provide reference material to back it up.

I have invested time and money into investigating these products. You are not going to find all the data on the internet in a few links (and the absence of 'in-your-lap' evidence does not mean I am wrong). I am not trying to change your mind and have no interest in 'selling' the idea to you. If you don't think there's anything in it then no loss to you if you dismiss it out of hand - what you don't know can't hurt you (or in this case benefit you), as they say.

I've made the point that there are approved devices marketed as tuning boxes that carry full manufacturer warranties, and I have named one. That these exist at all should be enough to establish that some tuning boxes can be used safely and do not cause the damage some people would attribute to all of them.

The reason they operate safely is because they are designed and engineered properly.

Edited by r11co on Thursday 22 September 14:21

[Leo-RS]

Renntech/Rebellion offered tuning boxes for the A45 AMG cars that seem to work well
MTM/ABT offer tuning box options in the VAG world that work well too.

These units are a lot more advanced than the DTUK tuning boxes and I don't know enough about these advanced units to comment much further but as they leave no traces in the ECU once removed, they must work on the same basis of sensor manipulation to extract additional performance.

Regardless, each have their benefits but we are surely all in agreement that a properly calibrated car is always going to outperform one with a box in that fools a few sensors.

[caelite]

Ozzie Osmond said:

caelite said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

OldGermanHeaps said:

Short term tuning boxes are awesome, just get shot before borkage gets expensive.

Precisely. Great way to destroy a car.

It depends entirely on the aggresivness of the tune, quality of fuel & state of the stock tune.

You forgot to mention the knowledge/competence, or lack of it, of the monkey doing the "tuning". That's the real issue.

Oh god aye. If you have a retard doing the tune you can easily get more power whilst simultainiously ruining your engine, they do this by numerous means:
1. Overcompression/Boost Pressure/adv timing for the fuel in use. A lot of tunes will mandate 98RON. Which is fine for the 1st owner but then the car gets older people will care less. 95RON will knock and ruin an overtuned engine

2. Overly rich fueling. Many tuners do this to avoid knock, during diesel tuning its the norm and the only downside is some lost efficiency at peak power and a bit of smoke. However in a petrol engine your going to be washing lubricant from your bore & fouling sparks

3. Overstressing peripherals, many engine blocks can handle oodles of power but are let down by poor stock peripherals which fail under the new tune. (see: Those awful KKK turbos VAG used to use/Subaru Transmissions). This does start the slippery slope of vehicle tuning though "Oh if i blow this turbo for only £700 hybrid I could get my 130bhp engine up to 240.... hmmmmmmm"