RE: Honda Civic Type R (EK9): PH Heroes

[ShuthanVtec]

chrismc1977 said:

All of the subsequent mainstream N/A models (DC5, EP3, Accord-R, FN2 etc) whilst very competent, fail to quite nail it in the way the EK9 & DC2 achieved from the factory.

Hi Chris, lol

I disagree with the ATR comment, about failing to nail the way EK9/DC2 did from factory, I have already said how great EK9/DC2 is, However there is alot of similar qualities in the ATR as well, with the hand finished engine, LSD, stripped of any unnecessarily weight, double wishbone suspension, reinforced chassis, a proper steering system (often said to be better than DC2), and the ATR is also said to be one of the best FWD greats. I know you owned an ATR before but many who driven/own one will disagree with your comment but each to their own

[ShuthanVtec]

Squirrelofwoe said:

Me too, I always thought it was the same suspension setup throughout. I'm certainly no Type R beard though, I was always too busy driving them to worry too much about why they drove as well as they did

UKDM and JDM ITR's have the same suspension set up.

[dannyDC2]

Squirrelofwoe said:

adam. said:

dannyDC2 said:

UKDM and 96 spec are the same... JDM 98 spec is different isn't it?

I always thought 98 JDM and UKDM were the same tbh.

Me too, I always thought it was the same suspension setup throughout. I'm certainly no Type R beard though, I was always too busy driving them to worry too much about why they drove as well as they did

96 and 98 spec are definitely different. Taken from ITRDC2:

Front:
96 Spec

Spring rate (KGf/MM) 4.4
Damper (KGf) (Full) 245
(short) 161
Anti Roll Bar (inches) 0.94

98 Spec

Spring rate (KGf/MM) 4.5
Damper (KGf) (Full) 231
(short) 142
Anti Roll Bar (inches) 0.98

Rear:

96 Spec

Spring rate (KGf/MM) 4.4
Damper (KGf) (Full) 118
(short) 70
Anti Roll Bar (inches) 0.87

98 Spec

Spring rate (KGf/MM) 4.5
Damper (KGf) (Full) 100
(short) 59
Anti Roll Bar (inches) 0.91



The UKDM is a bit of a mash between the two, but I think it had the 96 spec setup. Possibly changed towards the end of the line though?

[cib24]

It would be so nice to pick up an EK9 or DC2 to add to my JDM collection and use it primarily as a track car but I don't have space for another car! Shame, my FD RX-7 will have to remain my most track focused vehicle for now.

[chrismc1977]

ShuthanVtec said:

Hi Chris, lol

I disagree with the ATR comment, about failing to nail the way EK9/DC2 did from factory, I have already said how great EK9/DC2 is, However there is alot of similar qualities in the ATR as well, with the hand finished engine, LSD, stripped of any unnecessarily weight, double wishbone suspension, reinforced chassis, a proper steering system (often said to be better than DC2), and the ATR is also said to be one of the best FWD greats. I know you owned an ATR before but many who driven/own one will disagree with your comment but each to their own

Hi Shuthan! Don't get me wrong- the ATR's are great. However in my experience, standard vs standard the ITR feels 'right' as standard in a way the others can't compete with, ATR included

An ATR really needs work to tease all the performance from it. 17inch wheels hurt the gearing so it really needs a different final drive. (A 4.64fd brings it to similar overall gearing to a stock UK ITR on its 15's)
They are 200+kgs heavier & have a narrower 'usable' VTEC window thanks to the 700rpm lower rev limit. The standard mapping isn't fabulous either. As such & with the extra kerbweight they feel comparatively sluggish off VTEC & the engine needs absolutely revving out to keep it in VTEC between changes . Great in a straight line- however harder to achieve when you throw a sequence of bends in.

Of course, an ATR can be worked to cure all these foibles & make for a very accomplished fast road car at a cost. But as standard, it just isn't quite as good despite the positives you mention. Heavier, slower & harder work to extract the performance from.

Having owned two of each I consider myself pretty subjective...

Chris

[Squirrelofwoe]

ShuthanVtec said:

Hi Chris,

I disagree with the ATR comment, about failing to nail the way EK9/DC2 did from factory, I have already said how great EK9/DC2 is, However there is alot of similar qualities in the ATR as well, with the hand finished engine, LSD, stripped of any unnecessarily weight, double wishbone suspension, reinforced chassis, a proper steering system (often said to be better than DC2), and the ATR is also said to be one of the best FWD greats. I know you owned an ATR before but many who driven/own one will disagree with your comment but each to their own

That's exactly my thoughts too. I actually preferred my ATR to my DC2- just. And the noise with a Mongoose exhaust and K&N Typhoon was just

They do benefit from having the v-tec crossover point bought down very slightly though.

Either way, I think it's fair to say they have far more in common with the EK9/DC2 than with the later generations of Type Rs. Even things like the extra bulkhead behind the rear seats, which made carrying anything longer than about 4 foot absolutely impossible- and made it infinitely less practical than my mate's Clio Sport as we found out when we went to collect decking planks... (7 in my ATR vs 34 in his Clio)

Having now owned both, my perfect next Type R would be a DC2 with the H22 engine from the ATR

[Squirrelofwoe]

chrismc1977 said:

Of course, an ATR can be worked to cure all these foibles & make for a very accomplished fast road car at a cost. But as standard, it just isn't quite as good despite the positives you mention. Heavier, slower & harder work to extract the performance from.

Chris

This is true though.

[leonintegra36]

adam. said:

leonintegra36 said:

There isn't as much head room for a helmet in a dc5 compared to a DC2. Says alot about the track inspired nature of a DC2. The clever trick is that a DC2 still keeps greater composure on UK roads next to an Ek9/dc5.

Eh?


I'm 6'4 and fit just fine with a lid on!


I swapped the standard suspension on mine for a Bilstein B16/PSS kit, much more compliant with our shoddy roads.

Sure there is enough room in a dc5 for a helmet, but not as much as in a DC2, ask dikkie meaden. It was an observation by the EVO team in comparison to DC2 and DC5.

Edited by leonintegra36 on Friday 21st October 22:59

[leonintegra36]

mp3manager said:

leonintegra36 said:

There isn't as much head room for a helmet in a dc5 compared to a DC2. Says alot about the track inspired nature of a DC2. The clever trick is that a DC2 still keeps greater composure on UK roads next to an Ek9/dc5.

The DC5 is taller than a DC2 by 2.5inches, specifically to give more headroom when wearing a helmet. As for your last point, there's nothing clever about it, the EK9 & DC5 were never released over here, so don't have UK-tuned suspension.

Yes but as I live in the UK the chassis set up specifically tuned for UK roads comes in handy and was a very clever set up. Still want an Ek9 as well though. Far superior than a clio trophy which wasn't honed/engineered in the same league.

[ShuthanVtec]

chrismc1977 said:

Hi Shuthan! Don't get me wrong- the ATR's are great. However in my experience, standard vs standard the ITR feels 'right' as standard in a way the others can't compete with, ATR included

An ATR really needs work to tease all the performance from it. 17inch wheels hurt the gearing so it really needs a different final drive. (A 4.64fd brings it to similar overall gearing to a stock UK ITR on its 15's)
They are 200+kgs heavier & have a narrower 'usable' VTEC window thanks to the 700rpm lower rev limit. The standard mapping isn't fabulous either. As such & with the extra kerbweight they feel comparatively sluggish off VTEC & the engine needs absolutely revving out to keep it in VTEC between changes . Great in a straight line- however harder to achieve when you throw a sequence of bends in.

Of course, an ATR can be worked to cure all these foibles & make for a very accomplished fast road car at a cost. But as standard, it just isn't quite as good despite the positives you mention. Heavier, slower & harder work to extract the performance from.

Having owned two of each I consider myself pretty subjective...

Chris

Fair enough you prefer the DC2 mate but hey, world would be boring if we preferred the same thing, I agree with Squirrelofwoe that ATR's have more in common with EK9/DC2 than the R's after 2002 where Honda took a laid back approach, However Having had experience of both, I much prefer the ATR and the extra torque of the H22 helps extract better low down pull and the saloon body that has the practicality but handles like a car half its size

ATR, EK9 and DC2 are all great in their own right.

Edited by ShuthanVtec on Friday 21st October 20:09

Edited by ShuthanVtec on Friday 21st October 20:10

[chrismc1977]

ShuthanVtec said:

Fair enough you prefer the DC2 mate but hey, world would be boring if we preferred the same thing, I agree with Squirrelofwoe that ATR's have more in common with EK9/DC2 than the R's after 2002 where Honda took a laid back approach, However Having had experience of both, I much prefer the ATR

Definitely, the ATR is much much more comparable than EP3, FN2 etc

I was spoilt by having the DC2 first no doubt- -anything else has quite something to live up to...

[24 Lemons]

Random question, does anyone know why the dc2 had a hatchback and not a coupe boot like the prelude?

Was it purley so that you could get your track wheels in the boot like the Ek9?

[Squirrelofwoe]

chrismc1977 said:

I was spoilt by having the DC2 first no doubt- -anything else has quite something to live up to...

Funnily enough I ended up with my ATR while looking for another Integra- having sold my DC2 (out to a guy in Holland!) a year previous, I was regretting it and badly wanted another but didn't have the cash to get one comparable to the one I'd sold. I didn't want to end up with a dog and throw tons of money at it trying to recreate the one I'd had. ATRs were dirt cheap at that point, so I figured it would be an ideal compromise and the chance to try an alternative Type R- it also meant I got a very tidy one for way less than I would have spent on a ropey DC2.

Here we are several years on and I miss the Accord more than my original DC2.

It's funny how all of these Type Rs get under your skin though. I finally achieved a ten year dream of getting a TVR a few months ago, but I still find myself looking at EK9s/DC2s/ATRs in the classifieds every few weeks- 'just to see what is about'...

[ShuthanVtec]

Squirrelofwoe said:

Here we are several years on and I miss the Accord more than my original DC2.

It's funny how all of these Type Rs get under your skin though. I finally achieved a ten year dream of getting a TVR a few months ago, but I still find myself looking at EK9s/DC2s/ATRs in the classifieds every few weeks- 'just to see what is about'...

Many miss and come back to those three eventually from what I see daily. The PH heroes blog on the ATR a while back on here, had the most 'I miss my ATR' posts than any other car blogs I have seen on here.

[havoc]

dannyDC2 said:

Squirrelofwoe said:

adam. said:

dannyDC2 said:

UKDM and 96 spec are the same... JDM 98 spec is different isn't it?

I always thought 98 JDM and UKDM were the same tbh.

Me too, I always thought it was the same suspension setup throughout. I'm certainly no Type R beard though, I was always too busy driving them to worry too much about why they drove as well as they did

96 and 98 spec are definitely different. Taken from ITRDC2:

Front:
96 Spec

Spring rate (KGf/MM) 4.4
Damper (KGf) (Full) 245
(short) 161
Anti Roll Bar (inches) 0.94

98 Spec

Spring rate (KGf/MM) 4.5
Damper (KGf) (Full) 231
(short) 142
Anti Roll Bar (inches) 0.98

Rear:

96 Spec

Spring rate (KGf/MM) 4.4
Damper (KGf) (Full) 118
(short) 70
Anti Roll Bar (inches) 0.87

98 Spec

Spring rate (KGf/MM) 4.5
Damper (KGf) (Full) 100
(short) 59
Anti Roll Bar (inches) 0.91

The UKDM is a bit of a mash between the two, but I think it had the 96 spec setup. Possibly changed towards the end of the line though?

AIUI, the '98 spec suspension was modified to go with the 16" wheels. The UKDM was the same as the '96, but with the 5-stud hubs and the bigger front discs. In all honesty though, the differences are minor, and will by now be nullified by the difference between a cared for car and a knacker...



BTW - Have we all got big enough beards yet?!?

[leonintegra36]

I found all dc2s and atrs to have there own personality. Dc2s were more consistently good as some accords I had were dare I say it - sluggish, which was odd. Unsure why the discrepancies. However, I wish I had my first 2000 plate Accord Type R in red, it was mighty. Probably the quickest vtec I have owned. Loved that car so much.

Edited by leonintegra36 on Friday 21st October 22:53

[xcentric]

bit of a thread resurrection here, but
(i) who are the best Japanese auctions too deal with directly?
(ii) who does god importing if I organise it myself?
(iii) which is a good company to di ti all for me if I give them a desired spec?

ta.....

[alexpa]

Your using today's GBP/YEN rate! In 1997 the GBP/YEN was sitting around 200

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/bank-of-england-...

This car cost about £10,000 new in 1997 at a GBP/YEN rate of 200

I recall a friend of the family buying a 22B from Japan brand new for £14,500 landed over here around the same time