- The riddle pf the Toyota GT86- the car for purist drivers.
Discussion
I still think a lot of people don't get how the Japanese design cars.
Unlike the Germans, who are obsessed with building 'the best' and go to ridiculous lengths to quantify with endless statistics how their is the best, the Japanese normally design a car with a single purpose in mind. The GT86 was designed to be the spiritual successor the the AE86 Corrolla.
When compared to the old car it's difficult to class it as anything other than a success. Yes sales weren't great when compared to its competitors but Toyota didn't need it to be as it isn't a core car for the them, mazda have a lot more riding on the success of the 5 that Toyota did of the 86.
I'd like an 86 to have more power (and for me the BRZ should have has a version of the EJ20 in it) but I appriciate this isn't what Toyota were going for
Unlike the Germans, who are obsessed with building 'the best' and go to ridiculous lengths to quantify with endless statistics how their is the best, the Japanese normally design a car with a single purpose in mind. The GT86 was designed to be the spiritual successor the the AE86 Corrolla.
When compared to the old car it's difficult to class it as anything other than a success. Yes sales weren't great when compared to its competitors but Toyota didn't need it to be as it isn't a core car for the them, mazda have a lot more riding on the success of the 5 that Toyota did of the 86.
I'd like an 86 to have more power (and for me the BRZ should have has a version of the EJ20 in it) but I appriciate this isn't what Toyota were going for
yonex said:
kambites said:
The current Fiesta ST quoted as <1100kg.
the internet said:
4.5/5 · Autocar
Model: Ford Fiesta
Acceleration 0-62 mph: 6.9 seconds
Fuel economy: 46-48 mpg combined (34-36 city, 59 highway)
RRP: From £19,685
Kerb weight: 1,163 to 1,182 kg
In either case, the GT86 is not 'heavy'Model: Ford Fiesta
Acceleration 0-62 mph: 6.9 seconds
Fuel economy: 46-48 mpg combined (34-36 city, 59 highway)
RRP: From £19,685
Kerb weight: 1,163 to 1,182 kg
KarlMac said:
I still think a lot of people don't get how the Japanese design cars.
Unlike the Germans, who are obsessed with building 'the best' and go to ridiculous lengths to quantify with endless statistics how their is the best, the Japanese normally design a car with a single purpose in mind. The GT86 was designed to be the spiritual successor the the AE86 Corrolla.
When compared to the old car it's difficult to class it as anything other than a success. Yes sales weren't great when compared to its competitors but Toyota didn't need it to be as it isn't a core car for the them, mazda have a lot more riding on the success of the 5 that Toyota did of the 86.
I'd like an 86 to have more power (and for me the BRZ should have has a version of the EJ20 in it) but I appriciate this isn't what Toyota were going for
Agreed. How many times have we seen various Japanese offerings being applauded technically and only fully appreciated years down the line when the market values go through the roof. Keen drivers have been asking for normally aspirated, rwd cars with manual gearboxes. Unlike the Germans, who are obsessed with building 'the best' and go to ridiculous lengths to quantify with endless statistics how their is the best, the Japanese normally design a car with a single purpose in mind. The GT86 was designed to be the spiritual successor the the AE86 Corrolla.
When compared to the old car it's difficult to class it as anything other than a success. Yes sales weren't great when compared to its competitors but Toyota didn't need it to be as it isn't a core car for the them, mazda have a lot more riding on the success of the 5 that Toyota did of the 86.
I'd like an 86 to have more power (and for me the BRZ should have has a version of the EJ20 in it) but I appriciate this isn't what Toyota were going for
There's obviously not many of us left
Right. I bought a GT86 after lusting after them since the early concept cars and, although it's okay - I am getting rid of it after just a few months. Admittedly this is because of a change of circumstance so it's not like I'm changing for anything similar or comparable, but still, I was expecting to want to keep it a year or two. I've not gelled with it much and to be honest have never fallen for it.
I was prime target for this car:
Driving enthusiast with a penchant for sleek coupes
History of sporty Toyotas with similar performance
RWD experience
Enjoy modification
Came from a new Fiesta ST on finance
Wanted a new car (ie with warranty) but more exciting looking/driving than the Fiesta.
I just couldn't justify the cost of a new one - Toyota were very pessimistic about their second hand values which meant their finance offerings were crap. In reality they have held value not too badly, so they could have been better and attracted more new buyers. Still, it's done well overseas and Toyota/Subaru are happy with its sales.
I bought a nice high spec 2013 one in November, all the toys, heated fancy leather seats, the works. Immediately set about customising it - I had had a clear picture in my head of exactly how I wanted one to look for years. I think the car is quite pretty, and I do look back at it in the car park. Immediately new tyres, full alignment, got the car buttoned up perfect to enjoy for a good while. I was passionate about it and it should have been exactly what I wanted.
Driving it though I've not fallen for it. That "playful rear end" that sounds so good in the reviews - to me, as an average guy, a petrolhead but not a driving god, I just find it slightly intimidating. The back end will step out a little bit if you misjudge at all - too much throttle pulling out of a wet car park, unexpected damp patch in the road when accelerating, anything. The stability control catches you but still - if I was to describe it in one word I would say "skittish". And this means I drive it incredibly conservatively in corners, because frankly, I don't WANT the back end to step out on the road. Attack a corner and get caught out by an unexpected hump mid-bend - back end is going to slide a bit.
I thought this was going to be fun. I thought it's exactly what I wanted from a car. The reviews told me this behaviour is brilliant. In reality, on unpredictable public roads with traffic around, I hate it.
So skittish cornering behaviour you can work around if you can enjoy the car in other ways, you just are gentle in the bends, right? But it's not powerful or torquey enough to enjoy the straights, it's not fun to wring out - and it doesn't sound very nice so you can't enjoy simply trundling along listening to the engine like you would in a big V6 or V8. Then the interior is okay to look at, but feels plasticky, and because of low soundproofing to save weight it's pretty noisy and rattly in there, lots of wind noise. Can't comment on the rear seat useability as never needed to have anybody in there.
So overall... massive swing and a miss for me. Perhaps I am not the target market after all. Perhaps I was expecting something that it's not. But for me I want something either more stable feeling, more powerful, nicer sounding, or plusher inside (or all of the above). At the moment it has none of those things - all it's got in my eyes is that it looks nice, is more appealing than a warm hatchback and it has new car warranty.
edit: I also hate the gearbox feel and for some reason can't get used to the clutch... For over a month I was driving it with that same awkwardness that you noramlly only get for the first few minutes driving a car for the first time. I have had the clutch pedal height adjusted which makes it a bit better (owners clubs theorise that some cars pedals were poorly set at the factory) but I still don't like it much and can't drive it smoothly.
I was prime target for this car:
Driving enthusiast with a penchant for sleek coupes
History of sporty Toyotas with similar performance
RWD experience
Enjoy modification
Came from a new Fiesta ST on finance
Wanted a new car (ie with warranty) but more exciting looking/driving than the Fiesta.
I just couldn't justify the cost of a new one - Toyota were very pessimistic about their second hand values which meant their finance offerings were crap. In reality they have held value not too badly, so they could have been better and attracted more new buyers. Still, it's done well overseas and Toyota/Subaru are happy with its sales.
I bought a nice high spec 2013 one in November, all the toys, heated fancy leather seats, the works. Immediately set about customising it - I had had a clear picture in my head of exactly how I wanted one to look for years. I think the car is quite pretty, and I do look back at it in the car park. Immediately new tyres, full alignment, got the car buttoned up perfect to enjoy for a good while. I was passionate about it and it should have been exactly what I wanted.
Driving it though I've not fallen for it. That "playful rear end" that sounds so good in the reviews - to me, as an average guy, a petrolhead but not a driving god, I just find it slightly intimidating. The back end will step out a little bit if you misjudge at all - too much throttle pulling out of a wet car park, unexpected damp patch in the road when accelerating, anything. The stability control catches you but still - if I was to describe it in one word I would say "skittish". And this means I drive it incredibly conservatively in corners, because frankly, I don't WANT the back end to step out on the road. Attack a corner and get caught out by an unexpected hump mid-bend - back end is going to slide a bit.
I thought this was going to be fun. I thought it's exactly what I wanted from a car. The reviews told me this behaviour is brilliant. In reality, on unpredictable public roads with traffic around, I hate it.
So skittish cornering behaviour you can work around if you can enjoy the car in other ways, you just are gentle in the bends, right? But it's not powerful or torquey enough to enjoy the straights, it's not fun to wring out - and it doesn't sound very nice so you can't enjoy simply trundling along listening to the engine like you would in a big V6 or V8. Then the interior is okay to look at, but feels plasticky, and because of low soundproofing to save weight it's pretty noisy and rattly in there, lots of wind noise. Can't comment on the rear seat useability as never needed to have anybody in there.
So overall... massive swing and a miss for me. Perhaps I am not the target market after all. Perhaps I was expecting something that it's not. But for me I want something either more stable feeling, more powerful, nicer sounding, or plusher inside (or all of the above). At the moment it has none of those things - all it's got in my eyes is that it looks nice, is more appealing than a warm hatchback and it has new car warranty.
edit: I also hate the gearbox feel and for some reason can't get used to the clutch... For over a month I was driving it with that same awkwardness that you noramlly only get for the first few minutes driving a car for the first time. I have had the clutch pedal height adjusted which makes it a bit better (owners clubs theorise that some cars pedals were poorly set at the factory) but I still don't like it much and can't drive it smoothly.
Edited by Venturist on Friday 13th January 10:35
TooMany2cvs said:
HowManyLeft says north of 5,500 on the road, including BRZs.
I wouldn't call that a failure.
I would. Seeing as the RX-8 with it's utterly terrible fuel economy and divisive engine sold something like 24k.I wouldn't call that a failure.
IMO it was too impractical for a 4 seater and too slow for the money.
I don't understand why Toyota have stuck so doggedly to their N/A engine. Either
a) they think the people who claim they'd buy one if it hade a bit more grunt are lying
b) It would require re-engineering the drivetrain on a large scale
c) They are so in-thrall to the emissions tests that they daren't combust any more fuel in order to get the thing down the road quicker
For those people who like the car the way it is, buy the N/A version. For those who want to be about to overtake slow traffic with ease, and light up the rear tyres in the dry, make a turbo option available.
If you look back at their previous 2+2 RWD sports coupe (the Supra), both the Mk3 and Mk4 had turbo and N/A variants. The naturally aspirated Toyota sports cars of the past (Mk1 MR2 with the 1.6 4AGE, Celica Supra 2.8i, Celica VVTi) all had engines that thrived on revs. Given that the GT86 is, in part, an attempt to tap into a bit of retro appeal via the AE86 name, they seem to have missed the plus points of their entire sporting back-catalogue.
PS: I drove an Elise 111R (n/a Toyota VVTi engine) before I bought my Exige (same engine with a supercharger). The extra torque and horsepower brought the car alive, and turned it into a much more desirable proposition. I don't believe there were any downsides as a result.
a) they think the people who claim they'd buy one if it hade a bit more grunt are lying
b) It would require re-engineering the drivetrain on a large scale
c) They are so in-thrall to the emissions tests that they daren't combust any more fuel in order to get the thing down the road quicker
For those people who like the car the way it is, buy the N/A version. For those who want to be about to overtake slow traffic with ease, and light up the rear tyres in the dry, make a turbo option available.
If you look back at their previous 2+2 RWD sports coupe (the Supra), both the Mk3 and Mk4 had turbo and N/A variants. The naturally aspirated Toyota sports cars of the past (Mk1 MR2 with the 1.6 4AGE, Celica Supra 2.8i, Celica VVTi) all had engines that thrived on revs. Given that the GT86 is, in part, an attempt to tap into a bit of retro appeal via the AE86 name, they seem to have missed the plus points of their entire sporting back-catalogue.
PS: I drove an Elise 111R (n/a Toyota VVTi engine) before I bought my Exige (same engine with a supercharger). The extra torque and horsepower brought the car alive, and turned it into a much more desirable proposition. I don't believe there were any downsides as a result.
Escort3500 said:
Learn2MergeInTurn said:
The GT86 is slow....
So's the MX5 but that doesn't stop it selling well. Maybe it's a design thing; the MX5 is better looking.So i guess ultimately the MX5 has a well reconciled image - fun, cheapish, reasonable performance, great handling, looks in line with its aspirations. You know what you're getting when you look at an MX5.
The GT86 doesnt. Its only fun if you're driving it at 95% and beyond, its not cheap, and its performance doesnt match the pretensions of its looks. A 370Z sports a similar look, but it has 330BHP to back that up.
Summarising - too little power for the price and looks.
We'd have been prime candidates for one if the balance had been better.
daemon said:
Escort3500 said:
Learn2MergeInTurn said:
The GT86 is slow....
So's the MX5 but that doesn't stop it selling well. Maybe it's a design thing; the MX5 is better looking.So i guess ultimately the MX5 has a well reconciled image - fun, cheapish, reasonable performance, great handling, looks in line with its aspirations. You know what you're getting when you look at an MX5.
The GT86 doesnt. Its only fun if you're driving it at 95% and beyond, its not cheap, and its performance doesnt match the pretensions of its looks. A 370Z sports a similar look, but it has 330BHP to back that up.
Summarising - too little power for the price and looks.
We'd have been prime candidates for one if the balance had been better.
RobM77 said:
Sales of the MX5 to people for the love of driving a simple front engine rear drive car are probably vanishingly small. Most people who buy an MX5 want a compact open top car that's nice to drive; the fact that it's open top is key.
This is exactly right. Most MX's are purchased because it's a 'convertible sports car' which is economical and not intimidating. It has precious little to do with dynamics for those people IMO.ecsrobin said:
I think what we need to decide is what is the GT86's competition? If it's the hot hatch market (which in my criteria it was when looking to buy) then it is heavy.
What would the much lauded Golf R be?I think the expectations of people around the GT86 are way OTT. It's obvious looking at the specs what the focus was when they designed it. I guess we'll all be happy with the slightly tweaked fwd shopping cars in future, that's what they'll make if that's what is demanded
yonex said:
RobM77 said:
Sales of the MX5 to people for the love of driving a simple front engine rear drive car are probably vanishingly small. Most people who buy an MX5 want a compact open top car that's nice to drive; the fact that it's open top is key.
This is exactly right. Most MX's are purchased because it's a 'convertible sports car' which is economical and not intimidating. It has precious little to do with dynamics for those people IMO.now, which cars are purchased for their dynamics?
aww999 said:
CABC said:
absolutely.
now, which cars are purchased for their dynamics?
Well, assuming that the buyer needs to transport only two people in reasonable comfort, Lotus would be top of the list. now, which cars are purchased for their dynamics?
I've only ever had a short go in one on a wet skidpan at goodwood a few years back. But as a mr2 turbo owner I do really fancy one, only problem is that at the moment i'd be worried using one on track regularly like I do with the mr2.
Also I thought they started at around £22,000 not 28?
Someone earlier in the thread said they were able to hire one? Has anyone got anymore information about this, I'd love to hire one for a fun weekend to drive upto some nice Scottish roads while the mr2 is having its engine rebuilt.
Also I thought they started at around £22,000 not 28?
Someone earlier in the thread said they were able to hire one? Has anyone got anymore information about this, I'd love to hire one for a fun weekend to drive upto some nice Scottish roads while the mr2 is having its engine rebuilt.
yonex said:
ecsrobin said:
I think what we need to decide is what is the GT86's competition? If it's the hot hatch market (which in my criteria it was when looking to buy) then it is heavy.
What would the much lauded Golf R be?I think the expectations of people around the GT86 are way OTT. It's obvious looking at the specs what the focus was when they designed it. I guess we'll all be happy with the slightly tweaked fwd shopping cars in future, that's what they'll make if that's what is demanded
IdiotRace said:
I've only ever had a short go in one on a wet skidpan at goodwood a few years back. But as a mr2 turbo owner I do really fancy one, only problem is that at the moment i'd be worried using one on track regularly like I do with the mr2.
Also I thought they started at around £22,000 not 28?
Someone earlier in the thread said they were able to hire one? Has anyone got anymore information about this, I'd love to hire one for a fun weekend to drive upto some nice Scottish roads while the mr2 is having its engine rebuilt.
They start at just over £26k any colour that's not red is £500 extra spoilers are extra it soon adds up to around £28k Also I thought they started at around £22,000 not 28?
Someone earlier in the thread said they were able to hire one? Has anyone got anymore information about this, I'd love to hire one for a fun weekend to drive upto some nice Scottish roads while the mr2 is having its engine rebuilt.
I don't see any hatchback as a direct competitor to the GT86. My Golf R has 50% more power than the GT86, rear doors, rear seats that an adult can sit in, a boot that is almost twice as large, 4 wheel drive, and a massive step up in interior refinement, all for another ~200kg.
Does that make the Golf R a better car? Does it make the Golf R a better driver's car?
For the price difference between the Golf R and the GT86 I can fix both the tyres, the exhaust and the power deficit in the GT86.
Does that make the Golf R a better car? Does it make the Golf R a better driver's car?
For the price difference between the Golf R and the GT86 I can fix both the tyres, the exhaust and the power deficit in the GT86.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff