RE: Audi S4 Avant: Review

[D200]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Grantstown said:

When you can get hold of a 335d x-drive touring as a pre-registered car for 10 grand less than this, does the S4 make that much sense. The 10 grand could be put towards the weekend car fund. If there was still a manual gearbox and a V8 then there'd be a point of difference from the fast 4wd diesel. Am i wrong?

you are very wrong, i wouldst pay £1 for an oil burner, its just not comparable IMO

you are comparing used to new

i would still buy the merc and get the C63

He is not wrong. He has an opinion as have you. Opinions are like a**eholes and all that…

Personally I wouldn’t pay a pound for that Audi never mind 50,000 of them!

And it is not comparing old to new - both new, zero miles, 3 year warranty and all that.

I would much prefer a 335d or 340i or C43 or anything other than that

And yes, most people don’t care about numb steering, and most people don't care about torque steer and rock hard suspension that ruins the ride.

Doesn’t mean people on Pistonheads aren’t allowed to comment on it

[SuperVM]

ayman82 said:

Onehp said:

Golf R (estate) discussion again...

The new R estate has the new 7-speed dsg, so no difference there.

With the S4 you get:
- Interior quality
- V6
- MLB evo platform instead of MQB
- Better looks (most would agree?)
- Badge

Golf now also comes in Seat flavour, Leon ST Cupra 300 4drive (6 speed DSG).

Does the Audi not have the 8 speed gearbox?
I just think for the extra cost for the S4, the Golf seems to be a better proposition. The Cupra is now down on power against the Mk7.5 Golf Estate R.

I am biased, but I prefer the looks of the Golf over this. And the £12k less price tag.

I've seen some Golf R Estates I thought looked pretty good. Is the Cupra that much cheaper than the Golf R? From what I've seen, it doesn't appear to be and I imagine the residuals on the Golf will be better.

[ayman82]

Onehp said:

My mistake to make, this S4 is now (ZF?) torque converter 8 speed of course. If you prefer the looks of the Golf Estate, sure, I always thought that rear looked a bit incoherent... 10hp power difference is mostly marketing, not something one would notice surely?

If the real world price difference is 12k,that seems fair for the differences. But you could probably tick boxes for much more in the Audi...

The rear is a lot better than the previous generation Golf Estate. The power difference/facelift update seems to have reduced the 0-60 time, so it must have done something.

I've just specced one up, and it's come to just under £58k.
A well specced R would be approx £38k. I know what I'd rather have. Unless I wasn't paying of course!

[Steven_RW]

Dan Trent said:

Steven_RW said:

What is an 'inside out' twin-scroll turbo?

I know what a twin scroll is but not the 'inside out' part?

Thanks,
Steven

Sorry!

It's where the exhaust ports and turbo(s) are positioned within the vee of the cylinder banks with the induction side on the outside in the reverse of the traditional configuration. Faster spool-up for the turbos, quicker warm-up for emissions tests and improved packaging all claimed as benefits and increasingly popular. Audi (and the Porsches, Bentleys, etc... that share their V6/V8 engines), BMW M and AMG all using variations on this theme.

Cheers,

Dan

Hi Dan - thanks for the clarification. I was aware that Merc had started positioning turbos inside the V for space, efficiency, reduced pipework and so on. I hadn't heard that term before.

It would be interesting to know how they manage the extreme heat that a turbo, or in some cases, two turbos, make when maintained inside the V. I expect some clever airflow or venting has been implemented for the time that you have had enough of the extreme heat they create.

Cheers

Steven_RW

[SuperVM]

Steven_RW said:

Hi Dan - thanks for the clarification. I was aware that Merc had started positioning turbos inside the V for space, efficiency, reduced pipework and so on. I hadn't heard that term before.

It would be interesting to know how they manage the extreme heat that a turbo, or in some cases, two turbos, make when maintained inside the V. I expect some clever airflow or venting has been implemented for the time that you have had enough of the extreme heat they create.

Cheers

Steven_RW

From here:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/in-depth-with-the-201...

"Of course, there are downsides: cradling turbos in the V increases engine height, and dealing with residual heat when the engine is shut off immediately after a hard run is a challenge. AMG engineers addressed the latter issue by fitting a separate fan behind the radiator to supply cooling airflow to the engine and turbos when the car is stopped. (There also is a heat shield to keep them from boiling the hood’s paint.) For more cooling when the car is in motion, engineers designed what they call a “wind tunnel” that attaches to the underside of the hood to duct cooling air from the grille opening to and past the sizzlingly hot turbos."

[urquattroGus]

Also a bit fed up of reading about twin scroll turbo's. So what. Can't deny the benefits sounds more fancy than it is. Do most journalists undertand what it actually means?

[E65Ross]

Grantstown said:

When you can get hold of a 335d x-drive touring as a pre-registered car for 10 grand less than this, does the S4 make that much sense. The 10 grand could be put towards the weekend car fund. If there was still a manual gearbox and a V8 then there'd be a point of difference from the fast 4wd diesel. Am i wrong?

You're wrong.

[Oddball RS]

E65Ross said:

Grantstown said:

When you can get hold of a 335d x-drive touring as a pre-registered car for 10 grand less than this, does the S4 make that much sense. The 10 grand could be put towards the weekend car fund. If there was still a manual gearbox and a V8 then there'd be a point of difference from the fast 4wd diesel. Am i wrong?

You're wrong.

He's not really a hot estate that wont get over 30ish mpg on a steady motorway run is hardly moving the game on from the last variant, if anything its old hat.

[TomScrut]

Grantstown said:

When you can get hold of a 335d x-drive touring as a pre-registered car for 10 grand less than this, does the S4 make that much sense. The 10 grand could be put towards the weekend car fund. If there was still a manual gearbox and a V8 then there'd be a point of difference from the fast 4wd diesel. Am i wrong?

For starters you can get a fair lump of these anyway, which brings the gap a bit closer.

https://broadspeed.com/CarView/Audi/S4/43893/TFSI_...

Not saying you're wrong, each to their own, I like most VAG stuff and aren't that keen on BMWs (although considered a 335xd or 435xd for my next car)

Some would say buy a banger and put £45k to the weekend car fund!

As for the comparison with the Golf R, I had a B8 S4 and have a Golf R hatchback now, and the Golf is a great car but I do miss the interior of the Audi, the non fake engine note and the comfort level and refinement. The Golf is better to drive though. It is going to be replaced by an S5 sportback which should be the best of both worlds (better to drive than the S4 since its the newer chassis, more refined than the Golf) but time will tell. Others who have got S5 coupes going from Rs and are happy. But it's a personal opinion as to whether the difference is worth the money. I felt the S5 was the best value to lease with that performance and 4wd.

[TomScrut]

ayman82 said:

The power difference/facelift update seems to have reduced the 0-60 time, so it must have done something.

It has a 7 speed DSG instead of a 6 speed as well bear in mind. Gearing may help! Maybe they have changed the tune of the engine a fair bit (more than the 10hp reflects), I find my (manual) R only come to life in 3rd which is at around 60.

[nunpuncher]

Onehp said:

.... 10hp power difference is mostly marketing, not something one would notice surely?

...

I went from a mk7 Golf R to a Cupra 290. If Seat hadn't called it a 290 I would have swore it had more ponies than the Golf. Once you eventually get the thing moving it feels a fair bit more urgent.

[Onehp]

TomScrut said:

It has a 7 speed DSG instead of a 6 speed as well bear in mind. Gearing may help! Maybe they have changed the tune of the engine a fair bit (more than the 10hp reflects), I find my (manual) R only come to life in 3rd which is at around 60.

Indeed, it's the better gearbox, and also 20Nm more torque quoted. All for a few tenths 0-60, can't really say I would notice, don't drive like that. Nice to have but not decisive...

Torque is limited in lower first gears, like in most cars. If not by software, simply because the revs rise so quickly, boost pressure can't keep up fully to requested boost. Hence why NA can feel a lot better there.

[TomScrut]

Onehp said:

simply because the revs rise so quickly, boost pressure can't keep up fully to requested boost. Hence why NA can feel a lot better there.

Good point, never thought about that being the issue, and it certainly wasn't the case with my B8 S4 which was supercharged so wouldn't struggle there.

[Onehp]

urquattroGus said:

Also a bit fed up of reading about twin scroll turbo's. So what. Can't deny the benefits sounds more fancy than it is. Do most journalists undertand what it actually means?

Modern turbo tech has come some way, in the old days a gasoline turbo would work it's best in a power band of maybe 2000 revs if you're lucky, and before they would refuse to spool, and after they were saturated. Todays are much better, with much better engine control, variable valve timing and twin scroll. Twin scroll is more expensive because you need to seperate flow in the collector. One twin scroll replaces two smaller turbo units, with most of the benefits but without the cost and complexity. Perhaps that is why they like to mention it.

Funny though, the turbo of mentioned Golf R for example doesn't have twin scroll but it has a smart turbine blade geometry with the exhaust flow coming in in an angle, giving it a wide operating window without the costly separated exhaust flows. But it literally never gets a mention it seems. Oh well.

[TomScrut]

Onehp said:

urquattroGus said:

Also a bit fed up of reading about twin scroll turbo's. So what. Can't deny the benefits sounds more fancy than it is. Do most journalists undertand what it actually means?

Modern turbo tech has come some way, in the old days a gasoline turbo would work it's best in a power band of maybe 2000 revs if you're lucky, and before they would refuse to spool, and after they were saturated. Todays are much better, with much better engine control, variable valve timing and twin scroll. Twin scroll is more expensive because you need to seperate flow in the collector. One twin scroll replaces two smaller turbo units, with most of the benefits but without the cost and complexity. Perhaps that is why they like to mention it.

Funny though, the turbo of mentioned Golf R for example doesn't have twin scroll but it has a smart turbine blade geometry with the exhaust flow coming in in an angle, giving it a wide operating window without the costly separated exhaust flows. But it literally never gets a mention it seems. Oh well.

I recall somebody (in the media, cannot remember where or who) stating in a review this particular engine was "twin turbo", so they obviously knew not of the difference between "twin turbo" and "twin scroll turbo"

[Krikkit]

Steven_RW said:

Dan Trent said:

Steven_RW said:

What is an 'inside out' twin-scroll turbo?

I know what a twin scroll is but not the 'inside out' part?

Thanks,
Steven

Sorry!

It's where the exhaust ports and turbo(s) are positioned within the vee of the cylinder banks with the induction side on the outside in the reverse of the traditional configuration. Faster spool-up for the turbos, quicker warm-up for emissions tests and improved packaging all claimed as benefits and increasingly popular. Audi (and the Porsches, Bentleys, etc... that share their V6/V8 engines), BMW M and AMG all using variations on this theme.

Cheers,

Dan

Hi Dan - thanks for the clarification. I was aware that Merc had started positioning turbos inside the V for space, efficiency, reduced pipework and so on. I hadn't heard that term before.

It would be interesting to know how they manage the extreme heat that a turbo, or in some cases, two turbos, make when maintained inside the V. I expect some clever airflow or venting has been implemented for the time that you have had enough of the extreme heat they create.

Cheers

Steven_RW

It's more commonly known as a "hot-V" engine configuration. Very clever tech, and with water-cooled turbos and a bit more airflow not impossible to manage.

[D200]

Agreed

Lots of people here aren’t aware there is difference between ‘sporty’ and ‘petrol’

A good diesel car can be better than a stty petrol car. I’m not saying this S4 is stty but lots of people here seem to be of the opinion that all petrol cars are great and every petrol car on the market is infinitely better than any diesel ever made.

Personally, I would rather have a car with good steering, adjustable handling, a good ride, good power and torque even if it was a diesel

Also people need to note that the S4 a 1750kg automatic estate car that is turbo charged 6 cylinder that makes it peak power at 5400RPM.

It’s not as if the throttle response of this car is something like a Lotus Elise, 911 GT3 RS or Ferrari 458 that revs to 9000RPM etc

People need to get real and stop being so pedantic and pretentious

[TomScrut]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Interestingly the new SQ5 has the petrol engine from this S4 in it..... and I am very surprised to see it with a petrol engine, it won't sell anywhere near as well over here I don't think. It must be the most popular S model in the UK? It was the supercharged V6 in the US so maybe they are going global with one engine rather than a European diesel/rest of world petrol arrangement.

I always thought though the BiTDI engine would be great in a diesel S4 (so it has the sports seats etc rather than a normal A4), offer diesel and petrol S4s in a similar way to the 335xd and 340i are rivals to each other. The gap from a 272 3.0TDI to an S4 is significant compared to if it had the 320 in it!

[GTEYE]

Maybe its me, but the "S model" Audis seem to have lost their appeal these days . They do seem to be a bit between a rock and a hard place...too similar in looks to the TDi S-Lines and forever living in the shadows of the RS models...

I'm sure they have their place, but I'd much rather have the afore-mentioned 335d Touring which has just as much real world power, better economy and MUCH better value.

IMHO anyway.

[deepvolleymaster]

335 d xdrive for 10k less, its a no brainer!

Go to DMS Automotive and get the map changed to 395BHP 798NM of torque for £950

0-60 3.7 seconds, Top speed 188mph, 35mpg average. 45mpg on Mways at anything below 100mph

Go to Birds UK and get the exhaust, suspension and brakes done for £3800, if not all of that just the suspension and you will have a car that will easily keep up with an M3/M4 and is much more driveable. The suspension makes a very big difference to how the car absorbs bumps and holes and easily copes with extra power.

There are a couple of M4 drivers around here who just gawp as you go past!

I have one and its fantastic