RE: Honda claims new Civic Type R Nurburgring record

RE: Honda claims new Civic Type R Nurburgring record

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xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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jon- said:
We don't know what tyres this was running on, and I'd love to see the test with the Dunlops vs Michelin to back up that statement! The only test I've seen with them had the Dunlops second... behind the Michelin

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2013-Auto-Bil...
In the dry, Direzza 03g is unstoppable.
I have to admit I haven't driven on Cups - But from the track time group many people report that switching to DZ03G shaves seconds per lap on your average circuit compared to Cup2.
From my own experience I would bet money :-)

The DZ03G is a proper race carcass rather than a road carcass with a race type compound like the Cups. Also has far more aggressive tyre compound (DZ03G lasts a lot less) . Well worth a try, I was lucky enough to get a set with minimal use and a set of wheels for £350.
In my size they retail at around £300 EACH!!



They were absolutely the best tyres I've driven on and to be honest not much different to slicks.

tankplanker

2,479 posts

278 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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How does the DZ03G compare to Toyo triple 8s? You've got me pondering a switch when the current set runs out later this year.

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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Post up on the Track Time facebook group, but from what I've heard the Direzza 03g are better than the 888.

Again, Toyo is a road carcass with a race tread effectively, the DZ03G is pure motorsport throughout.

I'd go with DZ03G.



Few links:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=10...

http://rsmegane.com/threads/r888-or-dz03s.10575/


saxy

258 posts

123 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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265kph vs 246kph. Compared to the clubsport S. Way too big of a difference. Quick check with the Spa FWD lap record with the civic it only topped out at 209kph with much slower acceleration. They definitely turned up the boost for this record.


havoc

29,922 posts

234 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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MustardCutter said:
Pistonheads; where large numbers of car "enthusiasts" come together to moan about manufacturers demonstrating how fast their cars can go...
Indeed...because we all drive at 100% and 150mph on the public roads! rolleyes

The Type-R 'legend' was made on obsessive attention to detail (weight-saving as well as engineering), and resulted in cars that were impeccable to drive, with a superb blend of feedback, responsiveness, progression and engagement, as well as driver ergonomics Lap times were incidental, not the driving force.
(they used the engineering approach of a motor-racing department to develop a great road car, rather than use conventional engineering to try and develop a great lap time - think Mclaren F1 vs Bugatti Veyron design/engineering approaches, albeit at an affordable level)



As a key example the original DC2 / EK9 had 15" wheels with 195/55 tyres and small 262mm front discs (282mm in UK) - if they were interested in lap times both tyres and brakes would have been beefed up, even 20 years ago, but they were targeting minimising unsprung weight as a platform for better overall performance - the original Enkei wheels are ridiculously light (5.5kg without tyre / <15kg with tyre). Ditto on the NA1 NSX-R, which kept the small diameter wheel-size (and thus brake diameter) of the standard car, but with a reduction in unsprung weight.

Exactly WHERE are Honda (or VAG, or Renault or Ford) reducing unsprung weight now? They're not, because they're after the biggest brakes possible and the highest-performance tyres possible, and because marketing insist on 19" / 20" wheels now - the old FK2 19" wheels were 11kg each without rubber, for example with 350mm x 32mm front discs, while the Golf-R wheels are 11.25kg and hide 340mm discs, while the RS Mk3 wheels are close to 13kg each!
(At least with the Clubsport-S they're 18"s and allegedly -3kg vs "a conventional alloy" - but that's on the limited-edition car only not the regular Clubsport)

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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havoc said:
Exactly WHERE are Honda (or VAG, or Renault or Ford) reducing unsprung weight now? They're not, because they're after the biggest brakes possible and the highest-performance tyres possible, and because marketing insist on 19" / 20" wheels now - the old FK2 19" wheels were 11kg each without rubber, for example with 350mm x 32mm front discs, while the Golf-R wheels are 11.25kg and hide 340mm discs, while the RS Mk3 wheels are close to 13kg each!
(At least with the Clubsport-S they're 18"s and allegedly -3kg vs "a conventional alloy" - but that's on the limited-edition car only not the regular Clubsport)
Safety has changed though, it's not really possible to do the same level of weight saving now.

Plus brakes in old cars are crap. I'm glad multi piston calipers are stock on high performance cars.

saxy said:
265kph vs 246kph. Compared to the clubsport S. Way too big of a difference. Quick check with the Spa FWD lap record with the civic it only topped out at 209kph with much slower acceleration. They definitely turned up the boost for this record.
I agree, defo dodgy.

Plus I saw one today, it was ugly and I threw up while driving.

MustardCutter

238 posts

119 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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havoc said:
Indeed...because we all drive at 100% and 150mph on the public roads! rolleyes
I'd argue that most car performance metrics are irrelevant to most of people's driving time on public roads. At least a ring lap is a demonstration of how well a car can corner, accelerate, decelerate and its top speed when pushing a car to it's limits. Granted it's not a perfect measure but surely it's a better demonstration of how capable a performance orientated car is on the move compared with something like 0-60 which is governed predominantly by which wheels are being driven. Should Honda time how fast the car is at getting from the Swindon factory to Asda on a lunch break in traffic to be more representative of how the car may typically be used for a large portion of the time on public roads?

mooseracer

1,843 posts

169 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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Honda still not sorted their synchro issues from the sound of it smile

havoc

29,922 posts

234 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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xjay1337 said:
havoc said:
Exactly WHERE are Honda (or VAG, or Renault or Ford) reducing unsprung weight now?
Safety has changed though, it's not really possible to do the same level of weight saving now.

Plus brakes in old cars are crap. I'm glad multi piston calipers are stock on high performance cars.
I'm not talking about structural weight, I'm talking about unsprung weight - completely different, and if anything reductions are contributory to safety.

Oh, and those 'crap brakes' on the 20y.o. DC2 were anything but - 115ft 60-0mph performance, which is about equal to the 113ft quoted for the (13 years newer) Mk6 Golf GTi and isn't that far off the "official" 100ft 60-0mph for the Mk7 GTi PP (US instrumented tests show 153ft 70-0mph, which is a little better than the Focus RS and Golf-R - can't find data for the latest Civics or Meganes).
And note please that we've had 20 years of improvements in tyre technology...which I can imagine would account for an easy 10%+ improvement...



MustardCutter said:
havoc said:
Indeed...because we all drive at 100% and 150mph on the public roads! rolleyes
I'd argue that most car performance metrics are irrelevant to most of people's driving time on public roads. At least a ring lap is a demonstration of how well a car can corner, accelerate, decelerate and its top speed when pushing a car to it's limits. Granted it's not a perfect measure but surely it's a better demonstration of how capable a performance orientated car is on the move compared with something like 0-60 which is governed predominantly by which wheels are being driven.
Agree it's better than 0-60, but specifically targeting a N'ring time (ANY lap-time) compromises the vehicle as a road-car.
- The 'ring may be a gnarly, unforgiving circuit but it's still far smoother than most British A-roads, let alone B-roads.
- Optimising a car's suspension (and grip) for >>100mph speeds means the car can feel crashy / inert at legal road speeds.

...so you find a N'ring-optimised car is out-of-place on a British B-road, which SHOULD be where a hot-hatch is most at-home. Don't know about you but I'd rather my car was fun/agile/involving at lower speeds...

EK9_CTR

464 posts

133 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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Will it be as much fun down a B-road as an EK9?

MRobbins1987

509 posts

129 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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EK9_CTR said:
Will it be as much fun down a B-road as an EK9?
No, not unless your an absolute lunatic without a care for your license and other road users. More capable, less fun.

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
havoc said:
xjay1337 said:
havoc said:
Exactly WHERE are Honda (or VAG, or Renault or Ford) reducing unsprung weight now?
Safety has changed though, it's not really possible to do the same level of weight saving now.

Plus brakes in old cars are crap. I'm glad multi piston calipers are stock on high performance cars.
I'm not talking about structural weight, I'm talking about unsprung weight - completely different, and if anything reductions are contributory to safety.

Oh, and those 'crap brakes' on the 20y.o. DC2 were anything but - 115ft 60-0mph performance, which is about equal to the 113ft quoted for the (13 years newer) Mk6 Golf GTi and isn't that far off the "official" 100ft 60-0mph for the Mk7 GTi PP (US instrumented tests show 153ft 70-0mph, which is a little better than the Focus RS and Golf-R - can't find data for the latest Civics or Meganes).
And note please that we've had 20 years of improvements in tyre technology...which I can imagine would account for an easy 10%+ improvement...
Tyre technology has moved on yes. But looking at braking in the dry from a top UHP summer tyre to a budget UHP summer tyre is negligible.

But the other thing to consider with having multi piston calipers, larger floating discs, is the capability to repeatedly perform the same braking level over 10 or 15 stops. You will melt stock brakes very easily. Older cars being lighter will help their durability, but still..

As cars become heavier with more equipment (safety and for driver comfort eg nav/comfy seats) then you can't simply use the same lightweight components.
Have 6kg weels on a 1000kg car isn't a problem but making a wheel weigh 6kg for a car that weighs 1400kg for example requires expensive materials and design, you simply can't have flow formed alloys you'd need forged wheels from magnesium or similar and the cost is simply prohibitive.
Likewise you need larger suspension struts, beefier springs, more bracing etc.

Plenty of larger wheel sizes are light, I think my wheels are around 9kg in 18x9... pretty light.

Regarding weight on brakes, my TTRS/DB9 4 pot calipers are around half the weight of the stock 'R' single piston calipers.

b0rk

2,289 posts

145 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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havoc said:
The article quotes this new time as being on track-oriented road-legal rubber, so probably (broadly) comparable to Cup-2's...not sure about the old car's official time, probably the same.

I was wondering about the lap recorded by the German guy you mention, as I THINK all customer cars were sold with ContiSport 6's on, which will lose a fair few seconds around the 'ring to more optimised rubber...that difference in tyres could account for a chunk of the difference between his time and Honda's "official" time.

FWIW, I'm skeptical too - don't like all these manufacturer shenanigans - but want to make sure we're comparing apples with apples...
The old one did it on preproduction road tyres according to Honda, this was generally taken to assume be ContiSport 6's but Continental never issued a press release to confirm their tyres where used for the record holder so could equally have been a track special or a flat out slick.

This one? Well if it was on Cup's I'd have expected Honda to state as much and maybe even offer them as a factory option or state they'd be available as such. Renault, Seat and VW all stated there records where done on Cups. These where then either the OE tyre or a OE cost option. Ford haven't published a time for the Focus RS but again Cups are available as a OE cost option.

IIRC VW's second go the club sport was sans cage and independent drivers in production cars have come near to the record time. I can't recall any publication or owner getting within 20s and sub 8 of the last official Honda time even using Cups.

Escort Si-130

3,269 posts

179 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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What is now getting stupid is the use of roll cages, sticky non road legal tyres, plastic windows, lack of rear seats to do the front wheel drive record.
Cars that do NOT count imo is that Seat which was a laughing stock at being virtually non road standard, the Golf GTI clubsport with non normal tyres and non rear seat, Megane R26.R

The other cars that they claim to beat would have beaten them if they also pulled the same tricks.
The ring FWD record imo would be from the newer Megane Renault Sport or outgoing Civic Type R

DeolTheBeast

449 posts

145 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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saxy said:
265kph vs 246kph. Compared to the clubsport S. Way too big of a difference. Quick check with the Spa FWD lap record with the civic it only topped out at 209kph with much slower acceleration. They definitely turned up the boost for this record.
A 300+ HP Civic was only managing just under 130mph at the fastest points of the circuit (Spa)? Assuming thats on the straight after Eau Rouge or on the section prior to the tight chicane before the pits.


Itsallicanafford

2,759 posts

158 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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DeolTheBeast said:
A 300+ HP Civic was only managing just under 130mph at the fastest points of the circuit (Spa)? Assuming thats on the straight after Eau Rouge or on the section prior to the tight chicane before the pits.
The kemmel straight is long but deceptively steep. For reference we were hitting 140mph in an E46 M3 CSL

Edited by Itsallicanafford on Wednesday 26th April 17:56

hondansx

4,562 posts

224 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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Escort Si-130 said:
What is now getting stupid is the use of roll cages, sticky non road legal tyres, plastic windows, lack of rear seats to do the front wheel drive record.
Cars that do NOT count imo is that Seat which was a laughing stock at being virtually non road standard, the Golf GTI clubsport with non normal tyres and non rear seat, Megane R26.R

The other cars that they claim to beat would have beaten them if they also pulled the same tricks.
The ring FWD record imo would be from the newer Megane Renault Sport or outgoing Civic Type R
In fairness, the Megane was the first to have the 'tricks'. Remember, the R26R had no rear seats, a cage and plastic windows...

I can't put my finger on why it's any different, but the R26R was like Joe Public's GT3 RS, whereas the Seat, VW and Honda do absolutely nothing for me.

thegreenhell

15,110 posts

218 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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I don't have a problem with the Megane R26R or Golf Clubsport. You could at least buy a car from the showroom in the same configuration. The problem comes when manufacturers fit cages or different tyres, or remove seats, to alter the car from showroom specification for the purpose of improving their laptime. It's simple, blatant cheating.

Andy Gent

2 posts

206 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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I would be more likely to buy one if a lap took ten minutes but the car actually looked nice!

liner33

10,640 posts

201 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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If I was expected to go a drive a lap of the ring at that kind of pace, I'd want a roll cage and harnesses, isnt this a product of just common sense safety concerns rather than a performance enhancement?