RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars
Discussion
tomtom said:
Digga said:
Even with the auto 'box the M cars struggle. At DN16 there was an M5 stranded out on circuit because, to quote its driver "the gearbox shat itself".
M5s don't have auto boxes. Post E39 (which was still a manual) they're either SMG or DCT. So not what this thread is discussing.Digga said:
Don't profess to be that 'up' on BMWs, but the issue is, they can't be driven like previous M generations can.
I am actually a bit worried about what happens if my battery goes flat and/or I need to move the car by putting it in neutral. With the DCT there's a hidden switch you can shove a screwdriver into to put it in neutral without starting the engine, but you still need battery power to do it... 
BenGB said:
I don't suggest anybody yearns for the manual in an E46 M3. I've got one and it's horrible unless you are driving at 10/10ths when every change is being hammered home. The rest of the time it's notchy and uncooperative.
Is that part of the problem?BMW "M" boxes are s
t -> Most people buy the Auto"No one buys the manual" -> Auto only.
tomtom said:
Digga said:
Even with the auto 'box the M cars struggle. At DN16 there was an M5 stranded out on circuit because, to quote its driver "the gearbox shat itself".
M5s don't have auto boxes. Post E39 (which was still a manual) they're either SMG or DCT. So not what this thread is discussing.This argument goes on and on everywhere but in the showrooms where interest in manuals continues to decline. As it is today few supercars manual. Major brands from Mercedes to Ferrari have abandoned the manual. Yes Porsche makes a few but this will only continue if there is sufficient demand.
There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.
In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?
I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.
The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5
There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.
In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?
I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.
The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5
Ferraris with open gates are wonderful but they're now a thing of the past (even if manual 430s and 599s now command massive premiums over the F1 cars...). You feel like you're stepping back in time, getting out of, say, a 488 and back into a 355. And you are.
Buy a Lotus if you want a modern, manual sports car. Everything else is so full of electronics now that a manual gearbox doesn't make sense.
Buy a Lotus if you want a modern, manual sports car. Everything else is so full of electronics now that a manual gearbox doesn't make sense.
V8 FOU said:
The point also is, how many of the bleaters have actually driven a modern auto/dsg car?
I have. The first time I test drove a DSG Golf I accelerated up a hill and could barely feel any of the gear changes - just continuous acceleration and it was very impressive. I bought one. I am now on my third double clutch car and for a daily driver it is very convenient - when you want to you can change gear sequentially, so you still have control I have also driven Audi A8, Aston Martin DB9, McLaren MP4-12C and Porsche 911 (997 I think) all with paddle shifts and I am in little doubt that if I want to make progress I can do so more effectively with a paddle shift box than with a manual (other drivers better than me might be able to make better progress in a manual). But, only a few years ago I drove a very old Metro, which was difficult to drive smoothly, but when I did I had a feeling of accomplishment. So, when I bought a second car, I didn't want something that was easy to drive, I wanted something that was a bit more of a challenge, so that I could enjoy when I got it right. The trouble is, few people want a car that is difficult to drive as their only car, so unless people like me want to buy a new second car, the demand is limited. jl34 said:
Firstly, the sound , how pants does a car sound going up though the box in comparison to that lovely rise and fall of the engine between shifts in a manual car ?
Interesting! I'm totally the opposite! I love the hilarious whip crack sound you get from the ignition cut 
jl34 said:
Secondly its so tiresome to have so many gears, if im cruising in 7th or 8th and want to suddenly overtake I have to go down 2 or 3 gears
OK, I get that. Strictly speaking though, gears 7 and 8 are overdrives, so I tend not to bother using them if I'm in something with a ZF8 speed in manual mode.jl34 said:
And thirdly the lovely physical connection you get by snicking in a nice change and modulating the clutch, as well as heeling and toeing , its all lost!.
Fair enough. I personally don't really get this. The mechanical feeling in a gearbox doesn't help you feel anything regarding how the car handles. Good steering, or a good, progressive and feelsome brake pedal gives you a huge amount of confidence in a car, but the gearbox just changes gears. It's not important to know that the gears are engaging!skylarking808 said:
I would rather have a manual M3 than one with eight auto gears and 450+ BHP I cant use on the roads anyway.
Why do manufacturers insist on stupid amounts of horsepower increases that need even more tech that distances the driver to put the power down and keep it all on the road?
Auto drive drone cars are well on their way....
The best sportscars imho are 981 Boxster/Cayman S. Why do manufacturers insist on stupid amounts of horsepower increases that need even more tech that distances the driver to put the power down and keep it all on the road?
Auto drive drone cars are well on their way....
Big NA engine with nice sound and linear delivery and 6-speed Porsche manual (there are no better manuals than 6-speed Porsche manuals).
This to me seems quite logical. Autos, especially BMW autos, used to be pretty terrible, but the latest ZF boxes really are fantastic. I've only tried one car with DSC, an E90 M3, but it was superb and better than even the latest BMW auto, however it's such a close comparison that I can fully understand why BMW wouldn't bother to develop both. Given the weight and complexity disadvantages of DSC, auto seems like to the logical choice now.
I'm actually a fan of manual boxes, and will always have one when I can, but I'm aware that I'm in a minority, especially for the type of car the modern M car is - a fast comfortable exec express that whispers "I earn more than you" quietly across the office car park. People like me who love manuals are in such a minority in the M car sector that it just doesn't make sense for BMW to bother anymore. The modern day M4 is a very different car to, for example, the 911R, which recently opted for a manual box. We must also factor in the jerky drivetrains that most BMWs suffer from these days, caused by awful top of pedal throttle lag and nasty clutch delay valves - manual BMWs since the E46 aren't really that pleasant to drive. Note also that the 5 series is no longer available with a manual.
I'm actually a fan of manual boxes, and will always have one when I can, but I'm aware that I'm in a minority, especially for the type of car the modern M car is - a fast comfortable exec express that whispers "I earn more than you" quietly across the office car park. People like me who love manuals are in such a minority in the M car sector that it just doesn't make sense for BMW to bother anymore. The modern day M4 is a very different car to, for example, the 911R, which recently opted for a manual box. We must also factor in the jerky drivetrains that most BMWs suffer from these days, caused by awful top of pedal throttle lag and nasty clutch delay valves - manual BMWs since the E46 aren't really that pleasant to drive. Note also that the 5 series is no longer available with a manual.
The 'M' DCT is an excellent gearbox (From my experience with F10 M5), why on earth would they change that?!
The gearshifts are instant and still gives you that 'direct feel' drive that a manual gives you. If you've driven a DSG/DCT/MCT/whatever you want to call it, and then sit in a car with a torque converter automatic and put it in manual mode using the paddles, you'll feel the difference instantly.
The gearshifts are instant and still gives you that 'direct feel' drive that a manual gives you. If you've driven a DSG/DCT/MCT/whatever you want to call it, and then sit in a car with a torque converter automatic and put it in manual mode using the paddles, you'll feel the difference instantly.
Shakermaker said:
Most of us want them but aren't the people that are able to afford them brand new, which means that we have only what is available on the used market. And by the time we CAN afford new things, if ever, the market will have already dictated that nobody wants a manual car anymore.
Well, you have no say in the matter.By definition, people who buy used are picking the bones over the stuff that people bought new, but no longer want.
It's like the Heart Foundation saying that the wardrobe I gave them wasn't quite the style that's currently popular and really I should purchased this or that style from new to make it more beneficial to them... You'd just give them an odd look and ask if they want it or not.
Hardly rocket science...
Matt UK said:
Well, you have no say in the matter.
By definition, people who buy used are picking the bones over the stuff that people bought new, but no longer want.
It's like the Heart Foundation saying that the wardrobe I gave them wasn't quite the style that's currently popular and really I should purchased this or that style from new to make it more beneficial to them... You'd just give them an odd look and ask if they want it or not.
Hardly rocket science...
I only generally buy used but im going to have to agree with Matt here. A used car is something that someone bought before, ordered to his tastes, and then sold it. That's why its cheaper - it was someone else's.By definition, people who buy used are picking the bones over the stuff that people bought new, but no longer want.
It's like the Heart Foundation saying that the wardrobe I gave them wasn't quite the style that's currently popular and really I should purchased this or that style from new to make it more beneficial to them... You'd just give them an odd look and ask if they want it or not.
Hardly rocket science...
RacerMike said:
...all this 'joy' people apparently get from changing gear completely goes over my head...
ABS, T/C, ESC, DSG, Autobraking, Autopilot, Autonomous. Take your pick where you derive the most enjoyment. At some point in time someone will ask you where the joy in steering is.Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?
Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
I've just spent 2 weeks comparing the M3 Comp to the C63s, Alfa Quadrifoglio and Maserati Ghibli.
The BMW was the DCT, the others all standard Auto. The difference between them was sod all. In fact, the Autos were probably better overall.
When pushing on, the autos were mapped to be just as quick (in their sportiest settings), especially in the AMG and Alfa (who steering mounted paddles give a far better experience than the BMW).
When driving normally, the autos were perfect, whereas the BMW's full auto mode was a little clunky and had a tendency to hold on to a gear too long.
I always thought the AMG's Achilles heel would be the auto box against the Audi/BMW DCT, but having driven them all - it doesn't lose at all.
The BMW was the DCT, the others all standard Auto. The difference between them was sod all. In fact, the Autos were probably better overall.
When pushing on, the autos were mapped to be just as quick (in their sportiest settings), especially in the AMG and Alfa (who steering mounted paddles give a far better experience than the BMW).
When driving normally, the autos were perfect, whereas the BMW's full auto mode was a little clunky and had a tendency to hold on to a gear too long.
I always thought the AMG's Achilles heel would be the auto box against the Audi/BMW DCT, but having driven them all - it doesn't lose at all.
I love my DCT (7speed getrag) because it has some character. It isn't perfect and it tries to play the auto part, but is OK... No where near as good as the ZF 8 speed, but I like the clonking and banging, I get more sensation. When pressing on the box is a beast, much more exciting than the ZF. You really feel like it's an automated manual. There are times I wish it was a manual though, however those times are not sat in traffic or various slow maneuvering.
I think they are moving to auto due to cost and complications. DCT is a complex beast compared to an old torque converter with direct drive.
I think they are moving to auto due to cost and complications. DCT is a complex beast compared to an old torque converter with direct drive.
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