RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars

[Ho Lee Kau]

rassi said:

GTEYE said:

Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?

Anyone?

That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!

Notchy - check

Obstructive - check

Jerky - check

Slow - check

I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.

I rate the manual in my BMW Z4 highly!

Had Z4 3.0Si Coupe with a manual. It was an OK manual at best, rubbery and with delay, still enjoyable, but nowhere near as good as a Porsche 6-speed in my 997. The clutch delay valve in Z4 was terrible, I wanted to take it out, but in the end was too lazy and then I sold the car.

Given my experience I am of the following opinion:
- powerful turbocharged engines - DCT/Auto
- smaller turbos or bigger NAs - manual

[Ho Lee Kau]

Robert-nszl1 said:

In my life there are different sorts of driving. There is the A to B, wife and kids, dog in the boot type driving which I have a 6 year old 520d estate for. It's automatic, and in normal mode one of the slowest witted cars I've ever owned. But it does the job, and I'll probably never sell it.

I have a (BMW) motorcycle for commuting/ the odd tour. This has shift assist which allows clutchless gear shifting. I love it- the best of both worlds on a bike in that you still use your foot in the traditional way, and if you wish you can use the clutch, or you can shift without it (the clutchless shift tends not to work so well on downshifts, but on upshifts you get a great 'blat' sound!)

I then have 2 fun cars, a 997 and an old Alfa. Both are manual. Maybe it is generational, but part of the driving pleasure is in changing gear whether on a track or driving through the twisties. To drive smoothly, and quickly, it requires real mechanical sympathy especially in the Alfa. My 997 is a gen 2 and it took a fair bit of effort finding a manual one in the spec I wanted. But having driven numerous autos/ dsgs in my view it does make driving easier, and no doubt faster; but more fun? I certainly don't think so. I test drove a manual 991 back to back with a dsg version, and good as the dsg is as a car, the experience did lack something. I really didn't rate the 7 speed manual box vs the previous 6 speed though perhaps that is for another thread!

But long live the manual! I'm sure BMW have sound economic reasons for dropping them, but like vinyl to digital via cds, each step up the technology curve left the music experience a little poorer each time.....and look what is happening to vinyl now.....

Quickshifter on a 1L modern bike is a must imho, it just lets you concentrate on the steering and road more (on a bike it is obviously much more important than in a car).

In my experience blippers work just fine as long as you do not use them for 2-to-1 shift where you can catch a neutral at the most inopportune time (like leaning over in a corner).

Personally, I can live without QS/B, I like blipping throttle myself, and I have a relatively modern 1L superbike, but QS does enhance experience so any new bike I would order with a QS.

997 6-speed manual gearbox - the best I've tried so far. I did learn to drive in a manual Alfa Romeo 164 TS, but I do not remember the feel of gearbox, though I do remember the clutch was very heavy!

Still, imho, in modern boosted cars with 400+ horses and 500-600-...Nm of torque the best option is to get an auto or a double-clutch transmission, the power levels are too overwhelming and by the time you switch gear manually you are off the boost. NA engines are great with manuals though!

[Ho Lee Kau]

p1stonhead said:

Is there any 'supercars' which offer a manual any more? The only one i can think of is the R8 which I think still has a manual option?

Would you consider a 6+ liter american V8 a supercar?

[p1stonhead]

Ho Lee Kau said:

p1stonhead said:

Is there any 'supercars' which offer a manual any more? The only one i can think of is the R8 which I think still has a manual option?

Would you consider a 6+ liter american V8 a supercar?

Depends which one. A big engine does not a supercar make e.g C63 6.2

[RobM77]

Ho Lee Kau said:

rassi said:

GTEYE said:

Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?

Anyone?

That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!

Notchy - check

Obstructive - check

Jerky - check

Slow - check

I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.

I rate the manual in my BMW Z4 highly!

Had Z4 3.0Si Coupe with a manual. It was an OK manual at best, rubbery and with delay, still enjoyable, but nowhere near as good as a Porsche 6-speed in my 997. The clutch delay valve in Z4 was terrible, I wanted to take it out, but in the end was too lazy and then I sold the car.

Given my experience I am of the following opinion:
- powerful turbocharged engines - DCT/Auto
- smaller turbos or bigger NAs - manual

I also owned a Z4 3.0Si Coupé and yes, the gearchange experience was, like most all petrol BMWs, utterly crap due to the lag on the throttle and the lag on the clutch. If you drive a car without a delay on any of the controls though, like a Caterham or a single seater, the manual gearbox experience is wonderful

[garystoybox]

Loyly said:

sonnenschein3000 said:

The 'M' DCT is an excellent gearbox (From my experience with F10 M5), why on earth would they change that?!

The gearshifts are instant and still gives you that 'direct feel' drive that a manual gives you. If you've driven a DSG/DCT/MCT/whatever you want to call it, and then sit in a car with a torque converter automatic and put it in manual mode using the paddles, you'll feel the difference instantly.

This is the problem for me. The difference in application between DCT and torque converter isn't huge but the way they feel when working is markedly different. I have a huge deal of respect for the workings of the new ZF boxes that can imperceptibly shuffle nine gears but they lack the 'snap' of a DCT. I'm sure the 'snap' and shunt of the DCT boxes has not been engineered out because it adds some sporty character to the cars, being ever so faintly reminiscent of the 'bang' of a sequential shifter.

It's a funny move for BMW as this current M3/M4 appears to be the most sporty, aggressive and pointy-feeling M car for a long while. Sounds like they want to soften it up a bit for the next generation.

From my daily experience, I totally disagree. Having both F10 M5 with dct and new X5M with ZF auto. In the X5M, the ZF has been uniquely tuned to totally replicate and feel the same as dct when manually changing, whilst being smoother when in auto. No compromise and no fears for future M cars and the death of dct.

[Jhonno]

GTEYE said:

Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?

Anyone?

That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!

Notchy - check

Obstructive - check

Jerky - check

Slow - check

I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.

I've been driving manual BMW's for the majority of my driving "career" and have none of these issues with any of them. The closest to it was the Getrag 265 box in an E30 325i with worn linkage bushes. I have not yet had the pleasure of a manual Porsche box however..

[Dave Hedgehog]

p1stonhead said:

Is there any 'supercars' which offer a manual any more? The only one i can think of is the R8 which I think still has a manual option?

pretty sure the manual was dropped on the new model

the aston GT8 can be had with a stick as can a couple of porsches, not much else

[The GMan]

aston addict said:

It's all about car companies making money. Not enough people buy manuals in such cars nowadays so the engineering effort to accommodate a manual gearbox is very costly for such small sales.

The real travesty here is the downsizing to a less number of cylinder engines. It make me laugh when now you can pay upwards of £50k and still get a crappy four pot. They invariably sound like sh*t and are pathetic wheezing lumps. And yet the manufacturers still charge 6 cylinder prices. Blaming the downsizing on emissions is nonsense. It's all about profits.

As for BMW shifts, I had a E46 330 ci sport manual and it was a nice gearbox, and even better engine. Subsequent 3/4 series coupes have been more ugly and, yes quicker, but better cars?

Yes, loads better.

I've had an E46 330ci manual, I swapped for an SMG E46 M3, had a few other cars in the interim and have to say my M4 is a million miles better than the E46's I've had.

[Jhonno]

RobM77 said:

Ho Lee Kau said:

rassi said:

GTEYE said:

Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?

Anyone?

That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!

Notchy - check

Obstructive - check

Jerky - check

Slow - check

I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.

I rate the manual in my BMW Z4 highly!

Had Z4 3.0Si Coupe with a manual. It was an OK manual at best, rubbery and with delay, still enjoyable, but nowhere near as good as a Porsche 6-speed in my 997. The clutch delay valve in Z4 was terrible, I wanted to take it out, but in the end was too lazy and then I sold the car.

Given my experience I am of the following opinion:
- powerful turbocharged engines - DCT/Auto
- smaller turbos or bigger NAs - manual

I also owned a Z4 3.0Si Coupé and yes, the gearchange experience was, like most all petrol BMWs, utterly crap due to the lag on the throttle and the lag on the clutch. If you drive a car without a delay on any of the controls though, like a Caterham or a single seater, the manual gearbox experience is wonderful

I daily an e46 320d 6 speed, and the toy is a Cerbera.. You notice the loss of "sharpness" between the 2, but the linkage bushes need replacing on my e46, but I still wouldn't say it was awful. No missed changes, heel and toe etc.

[Jhonno]

The GMan said:

Yes, loads better.

I've had an E46 330ci manual, I swapped for an SMG E46 M3, had a few other cars in the interim and have to say my M4 is a million miles better than the E46's I've had.

In a similar lower model comparison.. I borrowed an E90 325i for 2 weeks, but prefer my E46 320d.. So much so, I now might just get another, rather than get an E90. The E90 was nice, just felt isolated.

[The GMan]

p1stonhead said:

Is there any 'supercars' which offer a manual any more? The only one i can think of is the R8 which I think still has a manual option?

All new R8's are S-tronic.

[Cheburator mk2]

"Love" the bullst idea that the drivetrain jerk added by SMG/DCT and convoluted auto boxes adds "sportiness". Nope, it doesn't - go drive any proper race car with a sequential box - there is no "sportiness"...

The idea that you are off boost in a big powerful trubo with a manual car - if the gear ratios are correctly chosen, you are not. Or you need to learn how to drive. Moreover, we are talking about modern turbo engines with high compression and electronics, where lag in general is almost imperceptible compared to the 1980s stuff.

Anyway, SMG/DCT/Auto cars are easier to drive fast for the average driver. Hence the logical demise of the manual box. Moreover, ///M cars stopped being directly associated with competition a long time ago. About 1992 from memory when was the last time the DTM car was actually close enough to the just finished production E30. Of course there is a small proportion of luddites like me who lament the demise of the N/A high revving engines, manual boxes and general feel, but the masses just want bulges, scoops, statistics and Google on their connected I-drive.

At least they made enough E46 M3 and E60/E9x cars so that we cannot complain. I would leave the E30s to the beards...


P.S. I do have an E46 M3 SMG (oh the irony) tucked alongside the GT3 CS in the garage...

[e21Mark]

Cheburator mk2 said:

I would leave the E30s to the beards...

I'm not sure I'm man enough to grow one though.

It's a shame the connection between motorsport and M cars has been lost though.

[Adz The Rat]

The GMan said:

All new R8's are S-tronic.

I was going to add that, and very good they are too.

The forthcoming GT3 has a manual option, Im struggling to think of any others.

[RobM77]

saxy][quote said:

As for BMW shifts, I had a E46 330 ci sport manual and it was a nice gearbox, and even better engine. Subsequent 3/4 series coupes have been more ugly and, yes quicker, but better cars?

Yes they have become better cars. More refined, more roomy, better mileage, faster of course. If you are single and want a small nippy RWD, you can still get the M2, m240i, m140i, or even a 125i. These are all very decent sporty cars.

I view the E46 as a bit of a low point for BMW, mainly due to the electronics and new engineering it introduced (notably the DBW throttle and CDV) being too early to market and not up to the job. My E46 was actually the worst car I've ever owned. The newer BMWs are a bit more remote, and yes, ePAS was a step backwards from a driving point of view, but the handling has in my opinion improved and the whole product has been further honed to make an overall much better car than the E46. Comparisons with the E36 depend on how you prioritise driving pleasure and refinement, but the E90 onwards cars really are very good indeed.

To put that in context, I've driven everything from the E30 onwards. I've also owned an E36 325i (80k to 154k), E36 328i (60k to 80k), E46 330ci (19k to 23k), Z4C (10k to 17k), E90 320d (54k to 153k) and my current car, an E90 320d ED (74k to 80k). The switch to diesel was simply down to the DBW throttle which ruined petrol BMWs from the E46 onwards - my Z4C was better in that respect but both it and the 330ci were sold on quite quickly for that reason.

[s m]

RobM77 said:

I view the E46 as a bit of a low point for BMW, mainly due to the electronics and new engineering it introduced (notably the DBW throttle and CDV) being too early to market and not up to the job. My E46 was actually the worst car I've ever owned. The newer BMWs are a bit more remote, and yes, ePAS was a step backwards from a driving point of view, but the handling has in my opinion improved and the whole product has been further honed to make an overall much better car than the E46. Comparisons with the E36 depend on how you prioritise driving pleasure and refinement, but the E90 onwards cars really are very good indeed.

To put that in context, I've driven everything from the E30 onwards. I've also owned an E36 325i (80k to 154k), E36 328i (60k to 80k), E46 330ci (19k to 23k), Z4C (10k to 17k), E90 320d (54k to 153k) and my current car, an E90 320d ED (74k to 80k). The switch to diesel was simply down to the DBW throttle which ruined petrol BMWs from the E46 onwards - my Z4C was better in that respect but both it and the 330ci were sold on quite quickly for that reason.

Unless you removed it Rob, your E36 would have had a CDV

E46 introduced DBW though as you say

[Cheburator mk2]

e21Mark said:

Cheburator mk2 said:

I would leave the E30s to the beards...

I'm not sure I'm man enough to grow one though.

It's a shame the connection between motorsport and M cars has been lost though.

I had one and also I had the even rarer 320iS, and a very late 1992 LHD 325iC

Lovely/Amazing cars, which would always have a special place in my heart, but at today's prices they make no sense to me, given that I don't have unlimited budget/space. If you managed to get and stay on the wagon while they were cheap, of course they are a keeper...

The beard reference, for the avoidance of doubt was tongue in cheek and linked to the typical 993 owner, who thinks that nothing better has come out of Weissach since then....

[RobM77]

s m said:

RobM77 said:

I view the E46 as a bit of a low point for BMW, mainly due to the electronics and new engineering it introduced (notably the DBW throttle and CDV) being too early to market and not up to the job. My E46 was actually the worst car I've ever owned. The newer BMWs are a bit more remote, and yes, ePAS was a step backwards from a driving point of view, but the handling has in my opinion improved and the whole product has been further honed to make an overall much better car than the E46. Comparisons with the E36 depend on how you prioritise driving pleasure and refinement, but the E90 onwards cars really are very good indeed.

To put that in context, I've driven everything from the E30 onwards. I've also owned an E36 325i (80k to 154k), E36 328i (60k to 80k), E46 330ci (19k to 23k), Z4C (10k to 17k), E90 320d (54k to 153k) and my current car, an E90 320d ED (74k to 80k). The switch to diesel was simply down to the DBW throttle which ruined petrol BMWs from the E46 onwards - my Z4C was better in that respect but both it and the 330ci were sold on quite quickly for that reason.

Unless you removed it Rob, your E36 would have had a CDV

E46 introduced DBW though as you say

Fair enough - I stand corrected! It was a minor point though, unless you combine it with a DBW lag, when it truly is awful and makes low speed manoeuvring complete guess work.

[e21Mark]

Cheburator mk2 said:

e21Mark said:

Cheburator mk2 said:

I would leave the E30s to the beards...

I'm not sure I'm man enough to grow one though.

It's a shame the connection between motorsport and M cars has been lost though.

I had one and also I had the even rarer 320iS, and a very late 1992 LHD 325iC

Lovely/Amazing cars, which would always have a special place in my heart, but at today's prices they make no sense to me, given that I don't have unlimited budget/space. If you managed to get and stay on the wagon while they were cheap, of course they are a keeper...

The beard reference, for the avoidance of doubt was tongue in cheek and linked to the typical 993 owner, who thinks that nothing better has come out of Weissach since then....

The value thing has been a double edged sword. Lots of previously unloved cars (mainly down to high maintenance costs and the unfounded timing chain fears) are now sought after but priced out of most enthusiasts. As you say, you need a chunk of disposable cash or to have got one before things got silly. I drive a 318is as a daily and people just want far more from their cars nowadays. It's just a shame there isn't a modern equivalent or even the demand.