RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars
Discussion
RobM77 said:
Fair enough - I stand corrected! It was a minor point though, unless you combine it with a DBW lag, when it truly is awful and makes low speed manoeuvring complete guess work.
Quite amazing how hundreds of thousands of people manage to cope with this every day, and probably don't even notice it.While I appreciate the advantages of modern autos (DCT or conventional), I find the evee-increasing numbee of ratios a bit off-putting. An 8/9/10 speed box is pretty much a CVT, in reality.
I recently took a mate's classic rally car for a spin through the hills - with not a lot of power and only 4 speeds.
It was really fun only having effectively 2 gears to play with - I spent most of the time in third, rolling on and off the throttle, and enjoyed it immensely.
I recently took a mate's classic rally car for a spin through the hills - with not a lot of power and only 4 speeds.
It was really fun only having effectively 2 gears to play with - I spent most of the time in third, rolling on and off the throttle, and enjoyed it immensely.
Mr2Mike said:
RobM77 said:
Fair enough - I stand corrected! It was a minor point though, unless you combine it with a DBW lag, when it truly is awful and makes low speed manoeuvring complete guess work.
Quite amazing how hundreds of thousands of people manage to cope with this every day, and probably don't even notice it.stuart-b said:
I love my DCT (7speed getrag) because it has some character. It isn't perfect and it tries to play the auto part, but is OK... No where near as good as the ZF 8 speed, but I like the clonking and banging, I get more sensation. When pressing on the box is a beast, much more exciting than the ZF. You really feel like it's an automated manual.
I agree, I really enjoyed the DCT in my 135i for those reasons, and in the 6 years I owned the car I can't say I could fault it.Well, I only two minor irritations to be hugely picky.
One was the fact that in maual mode, some Engineer thought it would still be good idea to have 'kick down' enabled........!
Never an issue on the road, but annoyed the hell out of me on the few occasions I drove the car on a track.
The other minor irritation was the fact that, the shift lever mechanism was never swapped for RHD use, making the manual shift using the lever 'awkward' in feel as opposed to how it was designed for LHD, which meant using the paddles always instead.
stuart-b said:
I think they are moving to auto due to cost and complications. DCT is a complex beast compared to an old torque converter with direct drive.
Very likely.Shame though, as I think the DCT is a much better option for the ///M range (other than X5M/X6M perhaps) than the ZF auto.
RobM77 said:
Mr2Mike said:
RobM77 said:
Fair enough - I stand corrected! It was a minor point though, unless you combine it with a DBW lag, when it truly is awful and makes low speed manoeuvring complete guess work.
Quite amazing how hundreds of thousands of people manage to cope with this every day, and probably don't even notice it.- Press the throttle and then read the rest of this sentence which will take about four seconds before -
There is any response!
You wouldn't even keep your foot on the accelerator for 4 seconds before backing off as you would think it was dead.
aeropilot said:
Very likely.
Shame though, as I think the DCT is a much better option for the ///M range (other than X5M/X6M perhaps) than the ZF auto.
You can now disable kickdown with MHD and also play with the DCT options (limit torque in certain gears, quite a few options).Shame though, as I think the DCT is a much better option for the ///M range (other than X5M/X6M perhaps) than the ZF auto.
I use the shifter in the Z4 sometimes, I like to alternate between paddles and shifter
I've tried DSG, DCT, various flavours of ZF and whatever Mercedes call their auto gearboxes. All of them are pretty good at doing the pootling around in comfort thing to greater or lessor degress with the new ZF box probably the best of the lot.
However what none of can do is replace the feel good factor and interaction of a decent manual. To smooth, too quick, too easy, no clutch modulation, no rev matching, no satisfaction at banging in a gear change quickly or rev matching on the way down the box. Fine if it's a daily driver but I find even the best DCT type boxes lacking in a car with sporty\fun pretensions.
However what none of can do is replace the feel good factor and interaction of a decent manual. To smooth, too quick, too easy, no clutch modulation, no rev matching, no satisfaction at banging in a gear change quickly or rev matching on the way down the box. Fine if it's a daily driver but I find even the best DCT type boxes lacking in a car with sporty\fun pretensions.
Jhonno said:
HJMS123 said:
Jhonno said:
I fully accept newer autos and DCT boxes are marvelous creations, and for daily drivers work supremely well.. However, I love my TVR because it is so analogue and enjoyable for it.. The feel of changing gear is part of that, with a bit of heel and toe. You have to make it work for you. The only new car that appeals to me, is an M2 or possibly an M3/4 with a manual box.
I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
We have another one, you can join the other two on the golf R thread you manly driving god.I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
It must be a generation thing.
RobM77 said:
s m said:
RobM77 said:
I view the E46 as a bit of a low point for BMW, mainly due to the electronics and new engineering it introduced (notably the DBW throttle and CDV) being too early to market and not up to the job. My E46 was actually the worst car I've ever owned. The newer BMWs are a bit more remote, and yes, ePAS was a step backwards from a driving point of view, but the handling has in my opinion improved and the whole product has been further honed to make an overall much better car than the E46. Comparisons with the E36 depend on how you prioritise driving pleasure and refinement, but the E90 onwards cars really are very good indeed.To put that in context, I've driven everything from the E30 onwards. I've also owned an E36 325i (80k to 154k), E36 328i (60k to 80k), E46 330ci (19k to 23k), Z4C (10k to 17k), E90 320d (54k to 153k) and my current car, an E90 320d ED (74k to 80k). The switch to diesel was simply down to the DBW throttle which ruined petrol BMWs from the E46 onwards - my Z4C was better in that respect but both it and the 330ci were sold on quite quickly for that reason.
E46 introduced DBW though as you say
I had a manual 2001 330ci, and this issue really showed itself when trying to do quick 3-point-turns. It would get totally confused. The revs would drop to 600rpm, then the anti-stall would kick in, cue rev surge to 1200 rpm, with very late response to your own throttle inputs.
It was quite embarrassing if someone happened to be watching.
Dave Hedgehog said:
Thorburn said:
And just like that I lose all interest in BMW M cars.
i think many people already had when they moved over to 6 pots with fake engine noises through the speakersdoubly so with the lack luster reviews of the cars
such a shame after the epic V8s they made
RIP traditional M cars.
Front bottom said:
Jhonno said:
HJMS123 said:
Jhonno said:
I fully accept newer autos and DCT boxes are marvelous creations, and for daily drivers work supremely well.. However, I love my TVR because it is so analogue and enjoyable for it.. The feel of changing gear is part of that, with a bit of heel and toe. You have to make it work for you. The only new car that appeals to me, is an M2 or possibly an M3/4 with a manual box.
I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
We have another one, you can join the other two on the golf R thread you manly driving god.I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
It must be a generation thing.
otoh, cars don't represent 'freedom' the way they used too. In fact, in the south east they can feel like a prison and manual shifting a painful chore in eternal traffic. having acknowledged that i am confused why people who actively join ph then don't appreciate the full practice of driving a sports car for pleasure. I'm sure Jhonno, like many others, has a sports car and a daily.
GTEYE said:
Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?
Fair point. I had an e46 320i manual and it was often an uncooperative little bugger.
The e39 530i was an auto - much nicer.
I think the M Cars are just fast barges now anyway, so I guess auto is not an issue for most new buyers.
Matt UK said:
GTEYE said:
Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?
Fair point.Fair.
I had an e46 320i manual and it was often an uncooperative little bugger.
The e39 530i was an auto - much nicer.
I think the M Cars are just fast barges now anyway, so I guess auto is not an issue for most new buyers.
It feels really slick if not a touch light IMO. I do like it.
Edited by V8A*ndy on Friday 28th April 10:00
V8A*ndy said:
Nothing wrong with the 1M's and that's rumored to be an 135i item with some tinkered bits in the syncro.
Yes, BMW (or Getrag) tinkered with the box from the N54 135i, for the 1M, but they also then put the same gearbox in the 135i when they changed over to the N55 engine, so the transmission in the 1M and N55 engined 135i are identical (same part number)
I think part of the problem is modern fast cars are just too fast to enjoy safely. The performance and limits of adhesion are at a point where you'll be going at a pace where things going awry will have major consequences. A twitch of oversteerat 35 -40 is a very different prospect at 65-70 and modern performance cars demand more respect. Obviously no one wants to believe they're amongst this group though, we're all driving gods here on PH after all, so it's no wonder cars like the GT86 haven't sold quite as well as they might.
Alex C2 said:
What he didn't say was within the determined space, weight and cost constraints they have planned. Take out 200kg of unnecessary NVH, pandering tech and sheer size / mass of your designs and give us a decent manual box.
Indeed. In fact we should not be surprised the 3/4 series will go auto only, after all they are now the size and weight of an old 7 series luxo bargeDave Hedgehog said:
i think many people already had when they moved over to 6 pots with fake engine noises through the speakers
doubly so with the lack luster reviews of the cars
such a shame after the epic V8s they made
See, I think BMW's core ability is in I6. The sound generator's not just a BMW thing, multiple manufacturers are using them, right or wrong, it can be disabled, and a 'real' exhaust fitted if that's still not enough. Whereas, as far as V8 lumps are concerned, I don't think BMW are close to ruling the roost compared to, say AMG/Merc let alone General Motors who are onto a winner with the LS series. I see BMW's flirtation with 8 cylinders in the M3 as being quite ill advised - not least because the knock-on effect was to create an M3 that was awful on fuel compared to its predecessors - the V10 M5 was a similar thing - everyone loved the idea of the V10 but the end result was an M5 that was impressive on paper but lacked the everyday usability of the E39. doubly so with the lack luster reviews of the cars
such a shame after the epic V8s they made
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