RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars
Discussion
rassi said:
GTEYE said:
Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?
Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
I rate the manual in my BMW Z4 highly!Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
vsonix said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
i think many people already had when they moved over to 6 pots with fake engine noises through the speakers
doubly so with the lack luster reviews of the cars
such a shame after the epic V8s they made
See, I think BMW's core ability is in I6. The sound generator's not just a BMW thing, multiple manufacturers are using them, right or wrong, it can be disabled, and a 'real' exhaust fitted if that's still not enough. Whereas, as far as V8 lumps are concerned, I don't think BMW are close to ruling the roost compared to, say AMG/Merc let alone General Motors who are onto a winner with the LS series. I see BMW's flirtation with 8 cylinders in the M3 as being quite ill advised - not least because the knock-on effect was to create an M3 that was awful on fuel compared to its predecessors - the V10 M5 was a similar thing - everyone loved the idea of the V10 but the end result was an M5 that was impressive on paper but lacked the everyday usability of the E39. doubly so with the lack luster reviews of the cars
such a shame after the epic V8s they made
vsonix said:
rassi said:
GTEYE said:
Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?
Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
I rate the manual in my BMW Z4 highly!Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
vsonix said:
See, I think BMW's core ability is in I6. The sound generator's not just a BMW thing, multiple manufacturers are using them, right or wrong, it can be disabled, and a 'real' exhaust fitted if that's still not enough. Whereas, as far as V8 lumps are concerned, I don't think BMW are close to ruling the roost compared to, say AMG/Merc let alone General Motors who are onto a winner with the LS series. I see BMW's flirtation with 8 cylinders in the M3 as being quite ill advised - not least because the knock-on effect was to create an M3 that was awful on fuel compared to its predecessors - the V10 M5 was a similar thing - everyone loved the idea of the V10 but the end result was an M5 that was impressive on paper but lacked the everyday usability of the E39.
I still think of the E60 M5 as a hugely impressive machine. I am somewhat less enamoured with the E90 but I warm to it more as time passes. I still find the notion that BMW fitted a really zingy N/A V8 into a car which was starting to look more and more like a leaden GT as time went by. The new M3 and M4 sound a lot sharper and faster by the sound of things.
Both the V8 and V10 were masterpieces in my opinion, just put in cars that were too heavy. If they'd dropped the weight of the M3\M5 by 150 kgs they'd have been awesome. Alternatively they should have stuck them in something else. The BMW v8 and V10 stuck in a Weismann for instance is absolutely brilliant by all accounts.
vsonix said:
Yeah, I am not sure what the naysayers are comparing the BMW transmissions with, and I've not driven anything newer than an E90 but by and large I've always found BMW manuals nicer to use than the Nissan, Subaru, Honda, VW and Peugeot manuals I've driven within living memory... There is the whole mania for fitting a clutch delay valve which I know upsets some people but I've never found it to be that annoying, I just adapted my style and got on with driving.
The gearboxes in both the Type R's I've owned have been far superior to the BMW's I've driven/owned. I like BMW's but it's not their strong point, their auto/dct transmissions are usually superior, just lack interaction.
Sad, very sad. I saw the way things were heading when they stopped putting LSDs in anything but their M cars (and BMW aren't the only performance manufacturer to start eschewing LSDs) but going to enforced auto-only gearboxes is dreadfully disappointing for the produces of supposedly the 'Ultimate Driving Machines' (maybe that ought to be Ultimate Driving Computers now? ;-) )! Never mind the performance/weight/emissions benefits or the other on-paper crap they are spouting as their reason: I buy a performance car for the overall driving experience and the pleasure I derive from it, not just the 0-60 or BHP or MPG. Sadly, changing through the gears is one of the few remaining true mechanical driver-to-car interfaces that requires practice & skill to master and that's not 'assisted' with electronic trickery. A nice gear-change can - and should - add substantially to the character and appeal of a vehicle so IF they go auto-only then I suspect quite a number of petrol-heads won't be as keen to buy one of these M cars in future.
Patrick Bateman said:
I think BMW manual shifts get a harsh time of it.
Ignoring my M5 as it had a short shift kit I wasn't keen on, the other manual BMW's I've had have been not bad. A bit notchy from 1st to 2nd but the shift in my Boxster isn't any better than the 330Ci I had.
My E92 M3 is the worst manual shift Ive ever used. And Ive driven some rubbish.Ignoring my M5 as it had a short shift kit I wasn't keen on, the other manual BMW's I've had have been not bad. A bit notchy from 1st to 2nd but the shift in my Boxster isn't any better than the 330Ci I had.
vsonix said:
Yeah, I am not sure what the naysayers are comparing the BMW transmissions with, and I've not driven anything newer than an E90 but by and large I've always found BMW manuals nicer to use than the Nissan, Subaru, Honda, VW and Peugeot manuals I've driven within living memory... There is the whole mania for fitting a clutch delay valve which I know upsets some people but I've never found it to be that annoying, I just adapted my style and got on with driving.
The manual in my E39 M5 is just about perfect.....richard-h425d said:
I agree with BMW..since most days we travel on congested roads ..why do we need manual?.
Indeed.However, I think the big reason manufacturers are now pushing auto's only across the ranges is because of the gradual preparation for autonomous vehicles......manual boxes in an autonomous vehicle just isn't going to happen.
RobM77 said:
To put that in context, I've driven everything from the E30 onwards. I've also owned an E36 325i (80k to 154k), E36 328i (60k to 80k), E46 330ci (19k to 23k), Z4C (10k to 17k), E90 320d (54k to 153k) and my current car, an E90 320d ED (74k to 80k). The switch to diesel was simply down to the DBW throttle which ruined petrol BMWs from the E46 onwards - my Z4C was better in that respect but both it and the 330ci were sold on quite quickly for that reason.
Yes, what a brilliant upgrade to diesel there Rob ! The clutch delay valve delete is a 10mn job btw. But if the the "gain" in throttle response is important to you vs having to drive a diesel, then fair enough! I stil have no idea what you're on about with this btw after all those years and I don't think anyone here has either but I might be wrong...MRobbins1987 said:
The gearboxes in both the Type R's I've owned have been far superior to the BMW's I've driven/owned. I like BMW's but it's not their strong point, their auto/dct transmissions are usually superior, just lack interaction.
Hmm, I've driven a DC2 Type R before, admittedly only round Bristol so didn't really get to open up the taps much. I can't say I even remember noticing the gear shift so I suppose that's a good thing. One thing I've kinda learned over the years with the manual E36 boxes is they start to become more enjoyable when you develop a fairly slow and deliberate gearshift combined with a certain delicacy of touch. You can just smash the shifter around and do vigorous changes but decide to take a more nuanced approach and you actually do get a nice amount of feel through the shifter. As you approach the synchro gate you can feel the tiniest of resistances letting you know a little blip of the throttle is necessary and as you give it the blip the car just drops into gear in a very satisfying way. It's actually been quite good, I think it encouraged the driver (me) to consider their shifts carefully, even when hooning about at a fair old pace you need to go about the task of shifting gears in a methodical, relaxed style. aeropilot said:
V8A*ndy said:
Nothing wrong with the 1M's and that's rumored to be an 135i item with some tinkered bits in the syncro.
Yes, BMW (or Getrag) tinkered with the box from the N54 135i, for the 1M, but they also then put the same gearbox in the 135i when they changed over to the N55 engine, so the transmission in the 1M and N55 engined 135i are identical (same part number)Every day a school day
DCT going is no big loss in my eyes, they are good on paper but usually disappointing in daily stop and go traffic. It's sad that manuals are also on the way out but again not as big of a loss as it would have been a few years ago when N/A engines were more exciting to interact with. I genuinely hope they hurry up with more sporty EVs like the i3. One of those for everyday and a classic from the 70s for the weekends is the way forward in my eyes. 
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