RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars
Discussion
Front bottom said:
I find that the manual 'box in an M car makes more sense the faster you go. It flows better the more you open the revs up.
I can't make my mind up about modern autos, maybe I'm a dinosaur (I'm 47).
I really don't like the way things are going tbh.
Agree, latest M3/4 is very fast but missing a proper M engine.I can't make my mind up about modern autos, maybe I'm a dinosaur (I'm 47).
I really don't like the way things are going tbh.
The next generation of M cars looks like it will 4WD/auto/flat torque turbo engine.
So why buy an M3/M4/M5/M6 over an X3M/X4M/X5M/X6M, when the latter offers better safety, visibility, access, etc.
Of course I know the answer, especially as X3M/X4M doesn't exist, but what major benefits are the proper M cars then really offering over their sacrilegeous 'XM' brethren.
The next logical step is to remove the engine and replace it with batteries/electric motors if the engine/gearbox is doing nothing other than producing a very fat torque curve at all four wheels, voila we have a Tesla.
The IC engine's days appear to be numbered, wouldn't it be great if the swan song was a proper NA M engine and gearbox (choice of manual or DCT) and sod the development cost and fuel economy.
At least Porsche seem to be adopting this strategy with the GT3 (not quite the same product/market I know) before Mission-E and other electric versions arrives.
I've intentionally left M1and M2 out as I don't know where they will fit into this.
EricE said:
One of those for everyday and a classic from the 70s for the weekends is the way forward in my eyes. 
no need to get your coat. daily driving is little fun, get right tool. fun needs light manual, that could be a classic or a modern fun car. my problem is with people who think a 1500kg hatch is the answer to everything.Loosing the DCT would be a major loss in my eyes.
I've skipped on buying an F-Type and (n/a) C63 because of the auto boxes. As quick as the boxes are they miss out on a crisp sharp shift that leave me underwhelmed. It ruins the whole feeling of the car. I'd also not want the F-Type in manual, it just doesn't suit the engine.
Likewise, I had a 997 in manual and would not buy a pdk. I'd have a 991 in pdk but not manual.
The current generation of turbo engines really suits the dual clutch gearbox. With that much power and close ratios they're too quick through the gears to be manuals and the dual clutch hides the turbo lag well. Really you're not going to be in the position to enjoy a road where they would work well as a manual (3rd/4th/5th will have you sent to jail).
I've been close to buying an M3/M4 for my last couple of cars, I wouldn't have one as a manual but it's a great fun car to drive with dct. I'm won't even look at one if it's an auto. Shame they don't do an M3 touring though or I'd have bought one on the spot.
I've skipped on buying an F-Type and (n/a) C63 because of the auto boxes. As quick as the boxes are they miss out on a crisp sharp shift that leave me underwhelmed. It ruins the whole feeling of the car. I'd also not want the F-Type in manual, it just doesn't suit the engine.
Likewise, I had a 997 in manual and would not buy a pdk. I'd have a 991 in pdk but not manual.
The current generation of turbo engines really suits the dual clutch gearbox. With that much power and close ratios they're too quick through the gears to be manuals and the dual clutch hides the turbo lag well. Really you're not going to be in the position to enjoy a road where they would work well as a manual (3rd/4th/5th will have you sent to jail).
I've been close to buying an M3/M4 for my last couple of cars, I wouldn't have one as a manual but it's a great fun car to drive with dct. I'm won't even look at one if it's an auto. Shame they don't do an M3 touring though or I'd have bought one on the spot.
I think there are a few things in play here:
1) BMW engines, both M and non-M, appear to have been developed and tuned with DCT/Auto boxes in mind. The MT exists as an afterthought, almost an appeasement to the 3-pedal minority.
2) BMW's M cars (with a couple of exceptions) place them in the realm of fast, utilitarian vehicles i.e. enough space for a family, but fast as hell. This means they're in a place straddling the practicality of a 4/5 seater saloon/coupe and a 2 seater sports car.
3) BMW chase mass-market sales, as indeed do Porsche for most variants of the 911. BMW could adopt a similar strategy to Porsche whereby their 'cooking' variants continue to focus on Auto/DCT, but their 'oh-you-really-give-a-s**t-about-actually-driving-this-thing' variants could meaningfully diverge from this and offer a proper manual a-la the new GT3.
Who knows. Feels like BMW M have lost their way somewhat. I'd rather see some hybrid tech augmenting the power of M engines than the continued use of turbos. This would allow them to continue to offer high revving engines, but would add power and flatten the power and torque curve considerably. There's the weight consideration too though...
1) BMW engines, both M and non-M, appear to have been developed and tuned with DCT/Auto boxes in mind. The MT exists as an afterthought, almost an appeasement to the 3-pedal minority.
2) BMW's M cars (with a couple of exceptions) place them in the realm of fast, utilitarian vehicles i.e. enough space for a family, but fast as hell. This means they're in a place straddling the practicality of a 4/5 seater saloon/coupe and a 2 seater sports car.
3) BMW chase mass-market sales, as indeed do Porsche for most variants of the 911. BMW could adopt a similar strategy to Porsche whereby their 'cooking' variants continue to focus on Auto/DCT, but their 'oh-you-really-give-a-s**t-about-actually-driving-this-thing' variants could meaningfully diverge from this and offer a proper manual a-la the new GT3.
Who knows. Feels like BMW M have lost their way somewhat. I'd rather see some hybrid tech augmenting the power of M engines than the continued use of turbos. This would allow them to continue to offer high revving engines, but would add power and flatten the power and torque curve considerably. There's the weight consideration too though...
SKYLINE3333 said:
Definitely time for the manual to go as its 80's tech now...
As long as the auto changes as quick as a DCT (ie in m/s) using paddles, does 60 in under 4 seconds, and is mated to 4wd then no problem with a 10 speed auto...
argh yes the 80's, famous for developing the CD player, Mobile phone and er.... the Manual transmissionAs long as the auto changes as quick as a DCT (ie in m/s) using paddles, does 60 in under 4 seconds, and is mated to 4wd then no problem with a 10 speed auto...
SKYLINE3333 said:
Definitely time for the manual to go as its 80's tech now...
As long as the auto changes as quick as a DCT (ie in m/s) using paddles, does 60 in under 4 seconds, and is mated to 4wd then no problem with a 10 speed auto...
I see driving is all about the numbers for you.As long as the auto changes as quick as a DCT (ie in m/s) using paddles, does 60 in under 4 seconds, and is mated to 4wd then no problem with a 10 speed auto...
I feel that manuals from all car makers will disappear apart from the odd manufacture having had an F80 M3 with the DCT box I didn't get on with it yes it had quick gear changes but compared to my CLK63 I didn't feel the box added anything to the car yes you could keep the momentum up but when it came to side by side roll ons the 63 would just pull from the M3 even with the slower gear changes & I also feel the slower changes add to the drama as the box drops into the next gear.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Sunday 30th April 10:53
Conscript said:
I see driving is all about the numbers for you.
Slightly O/T, I had exactly this sort of conversation with a Porsche salesman last week. Went to try a 718 Cayman. Currently have a 987 Boxster S. They only had a PDK car, so I was persuaded to try it. After the test drive, he was incredulous that I didn't like the engine noise and wanted a manual transmission (which of course I could still have) because 'It's so much faster with turbos and PDK...'. I couldn't get him to understand that my slower Boxster S manual was so much more fun with a clutch pedal and has a much better sound with 6 cylinders. I'll be buying a last of the line 981 I think. Let's just pray that Porsche don't do away with manuals for a while. Disturbing developments for enthusiasts ZX10R NIN said:
I feel that manuals from all car makers will disappear apart from the odd manufacture having had an F80 M3 with the DCT box I didn't get on with it yes it had quick gear changes but compared to my CLK63 I didn't feel the box added anything to the car yes you could keep the momentum up but when it came to side by side roll ons the 63 would just pull from the M3 even with the slower gear changes & I also feel the slower changes add to the drama as the box drops into the next gear.
That's the thing. Compare the satisfaction and involvement of nailing a heel and toe down shift into a corner with flicking a paddle.Edited by ZX10R NIN on Sunday 30th April 10:53
It doesn't matter how quick the paddle shift is if you want that involvement.
Mr2Mike said:
SKYLINE3333 said:
Definitely time for the manual to go as its 80's tech now...
80's tech? 
The manual gearbox is pretty much as old as the car itself, late 19th century technology. The automatic gearbox was around in 1921, so by your argument it should be time for that to go as well
Auto gearboxes, it's happening, embrace it (they're good) or else buy an '90's
Manual Bmw and enjoy it. But whilst you're there, rip out the seat belts, abs, power steering (remember 4-5 turns lock to lock) , disc brakes, (fit drums for that authentic manly feel),
Ditch the servo, AM only radio, keep fit windows, no climate.
Oh hang on a minute, that stuff is fairly useful.
Manual Bmw and enjoy it. But whilst you're there, rip out the seat belts, abs, power steering (remember 4-5 turns lock to lock) , disc brakes, (fit drums for that authentic manly feel),
Ditch the servo, AM only radio, keep fit windows, no climate.
Oh hang on a minute, that stuff is fairly useful.
3795mpower said:
Auto gearboxes, it's happening, embrace it (they're good) or else buy an '90's
Manual Bmw and enjoy it. But whilst you're there, rip out the seat belts, abs, power steering (remember 4-5 turns lock to lock) , disc brakes, (fit drums for that authentic manly feel),
Ditch the servo, AM only radio, keep fit windows, no climate.
Oh hang on a minute, that stuff is fairly useful.
Automatic gearboxes aren't a safety feature, unlike ABS, disc brakes (safer than drums), seat belts. Your post is a bit silly. Manual Bmw and enjoy it. But whilst you're there, rip out the seat belts, abs, power steering (remember 4-5 turns lock to lock) , disc brakes, (fit drums for that authentic manly feel),
Ditch the servo, AM only radio, keep fit windows, no climate.
Oh hang on a minute, that stuff is fairly useful.
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