RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars

[xjay1337]

SturdyHSV said:

So BMW can't engineer a reliable manual box that'll take more than 443lb ft of torque?

Ah well, at least the dumb backwards rednecks in America have managed to figure it out. Want 475lb ft through a manual? No problem, but would sir surely not prefer a manual with 650 lb ft going through it? Here, have a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on it as well.

I've been pushing 430 ft lb through a VAG 6 speed manual for years without issue!!

Poor engineering excuse from BMW.

[Fastdruid]

BMW, Audi and Ford are all off my shopping list for my next car.

None do a manual (on the engines/models I'm interested in). I really don't care how fast they change.

As for fuel economy, it makes a difference in the tests because it can always be in the "correct" gear.
Does it make a difference in the real world? Doubtful of any significance.

If I buy an M3/M5 I'm not particularly interested in it being fuel economic. I mean obviously I'd prefer it to do say 25mpg rather than 5mpg but it's not really something that features heavily in my buying criteria.

[s m]

SturdyHSV said:

So BMW can't engineer a reliable manual box that'll take more than 443lb ft of torque?

Ah well, at least the dumb backwards rednecks in America have managed to figure it out. Want 475lb ft through a manual? No problem, but would sir surely not prefer a manual with 650 lb ft going through it? Here, have a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on it as well.

I think Merc have said as much in the past as well - they can't make something with acceptable ( to them ) shift quality.

Porsche somehow still manage it

[Jex]

Matt UK said:

Same.

I think a boring tax efficient auto (or whatever fuel propulsion) for the daily grind and an older manual n/a play thing maintained to peak condition for the fun days is my path for the future.

Yes, I am a dinosaur (but don't forget, dinosaurs were frickin' awesome!!)

In that case, I am the future (but also a dinosaur - work that out).

[lestiq]

A real shame for sure, bought my silly car with manual box two years ago now, looks like it will be rarity for the future!

[xjay1337]

The other thing I find is pedal placement on many Audi (quattro / a4 platform) and BMW is poor unless you go for the auto.

Being offset so far to the right is painful. But with an auto it's not so bad as you don't need the clutch.

[GroundEffect]

SturdyHSV said:

So BMW can't engineer a reliable manual box that'll take more than 443lb ft of torque?

Ah well, at least the dumb backwards rednecks in America have managed to figure it out. Want 475lb ft through a manual? No problem, but would sir surely not prefer a manual with 650 lb ft going through it? Here, have a 5 year/100,000 mile warranty on it as well.

Of course they can but the bottom line to this whole thread is: they don't sell. Go look at the number of manual Fxx M cars for sale on PH or AT (or Porsche for that matter...).

I don't care about the bleating from PHers saying they want a manual, with a cage, a V8 that revs to 9000rpm...when none of them are actually in a position to buy one!

I own one of the last analogue M-cars - E92 M3 manual with its hydraulic steering and non-adaptive dampers, but I do understand why people paying £60k for a car want it to shift for them.

Edited by GroundEffect on Tuesday 25th April 11:44

[Thorburn]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i think many people already had when they moved over to 6 pots with fake engine noises through the speakers

doubly so with the lack luster reviews of the cars

such a shame after the epic V8s they made

Pretty much, although for me I'd look to the old E30 M3 or E46 as the ones I long for.

I drive an M135i with the 8-speed auto fairly regularly, and its an impressive piece of engineering, particularly given the cost, but it doesn't stir the soul. It's all mid-range grunt, strangely weighted, dead steering, and electronic assistance. I'd rather be going slower and actually enjoying myself.

[Adz The Rat]

GroundEffect said:

Of course they can but the bottom line to this whole thread is: they don't sell. Go look at the number of manual Fxx M cars for sale on PH or AT (or Porsche for that matter...).

I don't care about the bleating from PHers saying they want a manual, with a cage, a V8 that revs to 9000rpm...when none of them are actually in a position to buy one!

I own one of the last analogue M-cars - E92 M3 manual with its hydraulic steering and non-adaptive dampers, but I do understand why people paying £60k for a car want it to shift for them.

Edited by GroundEffect on Tuesday 25th April 11:44

Great post.

Its always the same, people crying they want a manual M car or Porsche GT or Ferrari, but they don't buy them.....

[skylarking808]

Krikkit said:

It's natural when each successive model is expected to be faster than the previous generation - if BMW brought the next M3 out and it wasn't quicker it would be seen as an abject failure (despite not being relevant).

If they're not prepared to keep the manual option I'd imagine they're going to see a significant drop of sales in the US as well, they're massively in favour of manual performance cars.

This is where it falls down "expected".

I think it is an assumption that we all want more horsepower from our sportier cars. Manufacturers are scared to take a risk with a car being succeeded with another with no increase in power.

To myself and many others it is how the car drives rather than the numbers that make me want to purchase a certain vehicle. BMWs have been about handling as much as outright speed. The original M3 and M5s are regarded as true classics yet their horsepower in todays terms is nothing special.

Perhaps websites like this and the motoring media feed into this "expectation"?

[AppleJuice]

Pistonheads said:

According to Quintus, manuals will struggle to cope with the latest range of super torquey turbo engines; the limit is said to be about 450hp and 443lb ft, with durability issues beyond that.

GETRAG 6MTI550
Maximum input torque:
LCV: 550 Nm (406 lb-ft)
Passenger car: 800 Nm (590 lb-ft)
Weight:
44 kg

[Shakermaker]

Adz The Rat said:

Great post.

Its always the same, people crying they want a manual M car or Porsche GT or Ferrari, but they don't buy them.....

Most of us want them but aren't the people that are able to afford them brand new, which means that we have only what is available on the used market. And by the time we CAN afford new things, if ever, the market will have already dictated that nobody wants a manual car anymore.

[SturdyHSV]

GroundEffect said:

Of course they can but the bottom line to this whole thread is: they don't sell.

But that's not the excuse he used, he said they couldn't make a durable one, hence picking up on it, I know they don't sell because the target market is limp-wristed executive golfers.

I infer limp wristed from these manufacturer comments:

siwhit said:

If you go on Car Throttle, he is reported as saying “We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful” OUCH!

s m said:

I think Merc have said as much in the past as well - they can't make something with acceptable ( to them ) shift quality.

Porsche somehow still manage it

Basically Merc and BMW can't make a floppy enough stick for their target customers to be able to handle

As some qualification, I have a car with an American gearbox (T56 can handle a LOT of torque) but have only driven an E92 M3 with the manual for ~75 miles.

[SturdyHSV]

skylarking808 said:

Krikkit said:

It's natural when each successive model is expected to be faster than the previous generation - if BMW brought the next M3 out and it wasn't quicker it would be seen as an abject failure (despite not being relevant).

If they're not prepared to keep the manual option I'd imagine they're going to see a significant drop of sales in the US as well, they're massively in favour of manual performance cars.

This is where it falls down "expected".

I think it is an assumption that we all want more horsepower from our sportier cars. Manufacturers are scared to take a risk with a car being succeeded with another with no increase in power.

To myself and many others it is how the car drives rather than the numbers that make me want to purchase a certain vehicle. BMWs have been about handling as much as outright speed. The original M3 and M5s are regarded as true classics yet their horsepower in todays terms is nothing special.

Perhaps websites like this and the motoring media feed into this "expectation"?

But you generally will discuss these matters with people who share your interests and views, thus you see a biased representation.

It really isn't you and 'many others' else they'd sell. Everyone else wants bigger numbers and flashier wheels.

[GroundEffect]

Shakermaker said:

Adz The Rat said:

Great post.

Its always the same, people crying they want a manual M car or Porsche GT or Ferrari, but they don't buy them.....

Most of us want them but aren't the people that are able to afford them brand new, which means that we have only what is available on the used market. And by the time we CAN afford new things, if ever, the market will have already dictated that nobody wants a manual car anymore.

And your opinion is worthless (and mine too as I can't afford them new either!).

Please Mr OEM, don't make the car that people actually buy and make you profit, make a car for a guy who might be able to afford one in 7 years time but won't make you any money.

[culpz]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i think many people already had when they moved over to 6 pots with fake engine noises through the speakers

doubly so with the lack luster reviews of the cars

such a shame after the epic V8s they made

Yet, all you seem to hear on here is just how disappointing those V8's actually are, coming directly from the people that have owned them. The E92 M3 appearing to be the main offender.

Mercedes, on the other hand, seem to have been able to replicate the sound and brutality of the old 6.2 V8 almost identically in their newer, forced-induction and downsized 4.0 engine.

Edited by culpz on Tuesday 25th April 12:09

[Helicopter123]

GroundEffect said:

Shakermaker said:

Adz The Rat said:

Great post.

Its always the same, people crying they want a manual M car or Porsche GT or Ferrari, but they don't buy them.....

Most of us want them but aren't the people that are able to afford them brand new, which means that we have only what is available on the used market. And by the time we CAN afford new things, if ever, the market will have already dictated that nobody wants a manual car anymore.

And your opinion is worthless (and mine too as I can't afford them new either!).

Please Mr OEM, don't make the car that people actually buy and make you profit, make a car for a guy who might be able to afford one in 7 years time but won't make you any money.

Clear miss-match between those who claim to want to buy a manual M car, and those that actually do?

I'm sorry, but if you're not prepared to pony up the cash (or sign up for a PCP), what exactly do you expect BMW to do?

[RS250_Steve]

Adz The Rat said:

GroundEffect said:

Of course they can but the bottom line to this whole thread is: they don't sell. Go look at the number of manual Fxx M cars for sale on PH or AT (or Porsche for that matter...).

I don't care about the bleating from PHers saying they want a manual, with a cage, a V8 that revs to 9000rpm...when none of them are actually in a position to buy one!

I own one of the last analogue M-cars - E92 M3 manual with its hydraulic steering and non-adaptive dampers, but I do understand why people paying £60k for a car want it to shift for them.

Edited by GroundEffect on Tuesday 25th April 11:44

Great post.

Its always the same, people crying they want a manual M car or Porsche GT or Ferrari, but they don't buy them.....

Exactly. No one buys them. It's the same with M touring models, they have built them in the past, but no one bought them.

Having said that as a BMW M nut, I am left feeling cold about the direction they are going.
I appreciate the fact the world is going turbo, and a lot of people like their torque characteristics so I can live with that. The auto box thing though... im not sure. I think the ZF 'box is excellent, but it just doesn't feel that engaging in the way the SMG or DCT do. Perhaps a calibration change would liven it up, we will just have to see.

I worry the brand is aligning itself more with Audi and Merc. Fast and comfortable, but turning its back on the things that made M cars...well... M cars.

[unpc]

The shift quality in my Mustang is really good and I know that box is capable of a lot more torque than the 400 lb-ft that it produces in stock trim.

[V8 FOU]

GroundEffect said:

And your opinion is worthless (and mine too as I can't afford them new either!).

Please Mr OEM, don't make the car that people actually buy and make you profit, make a car for a guy who might be able to afford one in 7 years time but won't make you any money.

The point also is, how many of the bleaters have actually driven a modern auto/dsg car?