RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars
Discussion
Shakermaker said:
Most of us want them but aren't the people that are able to afford them brand new, which means that we have only what is available on the used market. And by the time we CAN afford new things, if ever, the market will have already dictated that nobody wants a manual car anymore.
Then simply you arent the target market. The people that are walking into showrooms, speccing them with DCT boxes and parting with cash (or finance) is the target market and so are dictating what is built.As already stated. Manuals just don't sell in this market. And I can understand why as I personally have zero interest in a manual M3. It just gets in the way of things. I would genuinely prefer my Focus RS with a DSG in it, but it's not an option.
It's got nothing to do with being lazy...it's purely down to the fact that it makes the car more flexible, and all this 'joy' people apparently get from changing gear completely goes over my head. OK, learning to heal and toe is fun at first, but once you can do it every time you change gear, it's the same as using an indicator or turning the headlights on or off. It's a process to making the car go. In a DSG (providing you drive it in tip) you still chose the gear, you still decide when to change gear, but you just let the car sort out the swapping of cogs. And it's normally thousands of times faster than a manual and considerably less abusive than doing a proper fast flat shift.
I think a lot comes down to people imaging a car would be better with a manual rather than actually trying it. One classic example in my mind is the 997 generation GT3. Quite literally one of the most ponderous and notchy gearboxes I've ever tried. It stood out as being a fairly terrible part of an otherwise great car. The PDK in the 991 on the other hand.....one of the stand out parts of that car.
It's got nothing to do with being lazy...it's purely down to the fact that it makes the car more flexible, and all this 'joy' people apparently get from changing gear completely goes over my head. OK, learning to heal and toe is fun at first, but once you can do it every time you change gear, it's the same as using an indicator or turning the headlights on or off. It's a process to making the car go. In a DSG (providing you drive it in tip) you still chose the gear, you still decide when to change gear, but you just let the car sort out the swapping of cogs. And it's normally thousands of times faster than a manual and considerably less abusive than doing a proper fast flat shift.
I think a lot comes down to people imaging a car would be better with a manual rather than actually trying it. One classic example in my mind is the 997 generation GT3. Quite literally one of the most ponderous and notchy gearboxes I've ever tried. It stood out as being a fairly terrible part of an otherwise great car. The PDK in the 991 on the other hand.....one of the stand out parts of that car.
V8 FOU said:
GroundEffect said:
And your opinion is worthless (and mine too as I can't afford them new either!).
Please Mr OEM, don't make the car that people actually buy and make you profit, make a car for a guy who might be able to afford one in 7 years time but won't make you any money.
The point also is, how many of the bleaters have actually driven a modern auto/dsg car?Please Mr OEM, don't make the car that people actually buy and make you profit, make a car for a guy who might be able to afford one in 7 years time but won't make you any money.
Funnily enough, most people live in or close to congested towns and cities...so that will dictate the purchase...rather than the once a year trip through mid Wales (or similar!) where the manual gearbox might(!) come into its own.
For the new car buyer, its a whole lot of compromise for a marginal and rarely used gain.
Given that M cars are big heavy overpowered uberbarges then the auto seems the obvious choice. With such an unusable amount of power on the road it's not like working a manual will deliver much entertainment and on the M25 at rush hour (which is the majority of driving for such cars) an auto is hands down the best choice.
It would be a sad day if cars like the MX5 no longer came as manuals but for big exec barges I really can't see the point/problem.
It would be a sad day if cars like the MX5 no longer came as manuals but for big exec barges I really can't see the point/problem.
Even with the auto 'box the M cars struggle. At DN16 there was an M5 stranded out on circuit because, to quote its driver "the gearbox shat itself". Fortunately, a quick trip to a nearby dealer (courtesy of the quick-thinking recovery truck driver) saw it all re-set and working, but it's a worry.
Then there was the guy in the M4 who complained his brakes were simply not up to the task of lapping the 'Ring...
Meanwhile, in a £1,500-off-eBay (seriously) stripped-out and roll caged E46 325i, another bloke was busy having a hoot in a car that delivered fun, feedback and performance in spades. As were numerous E46 and E90 M3 owners.
We are past peak, analogue fun car.
Then there was the guy in the M4 who complained his brakes were simply not up to the task of lapping the 'Ring...
Meanwhile, in a £1,500-off-eBay (seriously) stripped-out and roll caged E46 325i, another bloke was busy having a hoot in a car that delivered fun, feedback and performance in spades. As were numerous E46 and E90 M3 owners.
We are past peak, analogue fun car.
RacerMike said:
As already stated. Manuals just don't sell in this market. And I can understand why as I personally have zero interest in a manual M3. It just gets in the way of things. I would genuinely prefer my Focus RS with a DSG in it, but it's not an option.
.
I can't help feeling that there is an element of self-fulfilling prophecy here. .
I am fortunate enough to be in a position where I could purchase the types of car discussed. However, a manual is an absolute must for me as every time I have driven a DCT car, I have been left massively underwhelmed. This means that the likes of Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, etc. are all dead to me.
I recently test drove a manual 718 Caymans and loved the pedal position and gear change. It was the non-S version and I asked to test drive the S version in a manual to see if the additional torque would make the long-gearing more bearable in day to day driving. Unfortunately there are none available to test drive in the country! I asked to test drive a manual 991.2 - again none available to test drive in the country! I wont buy a car without test driving it so I won't be buying a Porsche.
If the manufacturers either don't make them, or don't make demonstrators available, its highly unlikely that there will be significant sales of manuals. A chicken and egg situation perhaps.
I fully accept newer autos and DCT boxes are marvelous creations, and for daily drivers work supremely well.. However, I love my TVR because it is so analogue and enjoyable for it.. The feel of changing gear is part of that, with a bit of heel and toe. You have to make it work for you. The only new car that appeals to me, is an M2 or possibly an M3/4 with a manual box.
I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
RacerMike said:
As already stated. Manuals just don't sell in this market. And I can understand why as I personally have zero interest in a manual M3. It just gets in the way of things. I would genuinely prefer my Focus RS with a DSG in it, but it's not an option.
It's got nothing to do with being lazy...it's purely down to the fact that it makes the car more flexible, and all this 'joy' people apparently get from changing gear completely goes over my head. OK, learning to heal and toe is fun at first, but once you can do it every time you change gear, it's the same as using an indicator or turning the headlights on or off. It's a process to making the car go. In a DSG (providing you drive it in tip) you still chose the gear, you still decide when to change gear, but you just let the car sort out the swapping of cogs. And it's normally thousands of times faster than a manual and considerably less abusive than doing a proper fast flat shift.
I think a lot comes down to people imaging a car would be better with a manual rather than actually trying it. One classic example in my mind is the 997 generation GT3. Quite literally one of the most ponderous and notchy gearboxes I've ever tried. It stood out as being a fairly terrible part of an otherwise great car. The PDK in the 991 on the other hand.....one of the stand out parts of that car.
I understand your point of view, but I do disagree with it. I have just bought my first paddle shift car, a jaguar f type v8s. It an awesome car, the shift quality is fantastic, slick, efficient and does make the car very easy in traffic. But....... oh dear a whole layer of enjoyment has been taken away. Firstly, the sound , how pants does a car sound going up though the box in comparison to that lovely rise and fall of the engine between shifts in a manual car ?It's got nothing to do with being lazy...it's purely down to the fact that it makes the car more flexible, and all this 'joy' people apparently get from changing gear completely goes over my head. OK, learning to heal and toe is fun at first, but once you can do it every time you change gear, it's the same as using an indicator or turning the headlights on or off. It's a process to making the car go. In a DSG (providing you drive it in tip) you still chose the gear, you still decide when to change gear, but you just let the car sort out the swapping of cogs. And it's normally thousands of times faster than a manual and considerably less abusive than doing a proper fast flat shift.
I think a lot comes down to people imaging a car would be better with a manual rather than actually trying it. One classic example in my mind is the 997 generation GT3. Quite literally one of the most ponderous and notchy gearboxes I've ever tried. It stood out as being a fairly terrible part of an otherwise great car. The PDK in the 991 on the other hand.....one of the stand out parts of that car.
Secondly its so tiresome to have so many gears, if im cruising in 7th or 8th and want to suddenly overtake I have to go down 2 or 3 gears. And thirdly the lovely physical connection you get by snicking in a nice change and modulating the clutch, as well as heeling and toeing , its all lost!. Suddenly going quickly is so easy that the engagement and challenge to actually drive the car has been lost.
Fabulous car though it is, as a sports car, it will be my last paddle shifter.
Tbh, if i was to buy an M car, it would most likely be an auto/DCT. It would probably suit my personal use much better as an all-rounder. I've also driven a few non-M BMW's, both old and new and their manual gearboxes haven't been the best.
I do fully understand why this would upset some enthusiasts. It's a shame that the option will be taken away. However, i do remember a certain PH article about how the author reckoned that the DCT in the E92 M3 suited the car more than the manual did.
I do fully understand why this would upset some enthusiasts. It's a shame that the option will be taken away. However, i do remember a certain PH article about how the author reckoned that the DCT in the E92 M3 suited the car more than the manual did.
Edited by culpz on Tuesday 25th April 13:48
Jhonno said:
I fully accept newer autos and DCT boxes are marvelous creations, and for daily drivers work supremely well.. However, I love my TVR because it is so analogue and enjoyable for it.. The feel of changing gear is part of that, with a bit of heel and toe. You have to make it work for you. The only new car that appeals to me, is an M2 or possibly an M3/4 with a manual box.
I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
We have another one, you can join the other two on the golf R thread you manly driving god.I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
Matt UK said:
Guvernator said:
And another one bites the dust. I'm seriously beginning to loose all interest in performance cars past a certain age now.
Same. I think a boring tax efficient auto (or whatever fuel propulsion) for the daily grind and an older manual n/a play thing maintained to peak condition for the fun days is my path for the future.
Yes, I am a dinosaur (but don't forget, dinosaurs were frickin' awesome!!)
HJMS123 said:
Jhonno said:
I fully accept newer autos and DCT boxes are marvelous creations, and for daily drivers work supremely well.. However, I love my TVR because it is so analogue and enjoyable for it.. The feel of changing gear is part of that, with a bit of heel and toe. You have to make it work for you. The only new car that appeals to me, is an M2 or possibly an M3/4 with a manual box.
I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
We have another one, you can join the other two on the golf R thread you manly driving god.I guess I must be a relatively young dinosaur, or is it more and more of these cars are being bought as a status symbol by people with less interest in actual enjoyment of driving them.
Digga said:
Even with the auto 'box the M cars struggle. At DN16 there was an M5 stranded out on circuit because, to quote its driver "the gearbox shat itself".
M5s don't have auto boxes. Post E39 (which was still a manual) they're either SMG or DCT. So not what this thread is discussing.Adz The Rat said:
Shakermaker said:
Most of us want them but aren't the people that are able to afford them brand new, which means that we have only what is available on the used market. And by the time we CAN afford new things, if ever, the market will have already dictated that nobody wants a manual car anymore.
Then simply you arent the target market. The people that are walking into showrooms, speccing them with DCT boxes and parting with cash (or finance) is the target market and so are dictating what is built.Right now, I would be in the position to enjoy a manual M-car still, and have done in the past. But work necessitates that I have a boring diesel and I have that with the DSG and all is good there too.
RacerMike said:
It's got nothing to do with being lazy...it's purely down to the fact that it makes the car more flexible, and all this 'joy' people apparently get from changing gear completely goes over my head. OK, learning to heal and toe is fun at first, but once you can do it every time you change gear, it's the same as using an indicator or turning the headlights on or off. It's a process to making the car go. In a DSG (providing you drive it in tip) you still chose the gear, you still decide when to change gear, but you just let the car sort out the swapping of cogs. And it's normally thousands of times faster than a manual and considerably less abusive than doing a proper fast flat shift.
I'm really interested in this PoV as it is shared by quite a few people I know, including people who I consider to be hugely enthusiastic drivers, yet it's so completely different to my own, being someone who considers the art of manual gearchanging and clutch control integral to the experience of pleasurable driving.If it goes over your head and is simply part of making a car go, why is steering not the same? I see no difference in substituting "changing gear" in the statement above with "steering". When the technology is mature enough for a self-driving car to steer more effectively than a human (and it can't be far away), using the same logic it must surely follow that that's the better choice?
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