RE: Manuals and DCTs disappearing from M cars
Discussion
For every person who hates the Auto / DCT box, there will be 10 who do not. I haven't driven any other BMW but an E39 M5, but I am looking at driving an F10 M5 soon with a view to purchase. I have no issue with DCT / Auto's. Yes I do prefer a manual, but I wouldn't rule a car out because it doesn't have one. Today's new car buyers want an Auto / DCT. Want a manual, then get out there and change the world!
sonnenschein3000 said:
The 'M' DCT is an excellent gearbox (From my experience with F10 M5), why on earth would they change that?!
The gearshifts are instant and still gives you that 'direct feel' drive that a manual gives you. If you've driven a DSG/DCT/MCT/whatever you want to call it, and then sit in a car with a torque converter automatic and put it in manual mode using the paddles, you'll feel the difference instantly.
This is the problem for me. The difference in application between DCT and torque converter isn't huge but the way they feel when working is markedly different. I have a huge deal of respect for the workings of the new ZF boxes that can imperceptibly shuffle nine gears but they lack the 'snap' of a DCT. I'm sure the 'snap' and shunt of the DCT boxes has not been engineered out because it adds some sporty character to the cars, being ever so faintly reminiscent of the 'bang' of a sequential shifter. The gearshifts are instant and still gives you that 'direct feel' drive that a manual gives you. If you've driven a DSG/DCT/MCT/whatever you want to call it, and then sit in a car with a torque converter automatic and put it in manual mode using the paddles, you'll feel the difference instantly.
It's a funny move for BMW as this current M3/M4 appears to be the most sporty, aggressive and pointy-feeling M car for a long while. Sounds like they want to soften it up a bit for the next generation.
It's all about car companies making money. Not enough people buy manuals in such cars nowadays so the engineering effort to accommodate a manual gearbox is very costly for such small sales.
The real travesty here is the downsizing to a less number of cylinder engines. It make me laugh when now you can pay upwards of £50k and still get a crappy four pot. They invariably sound like sh*t and are pathetic wheezing lumps. And yet the manufacturers still charge 6 cylinder prices. Blaming the downsizing on emissions is nonsense. It's all about profits.
As for BMW shifts, I had a E46 330 ci sport manual and it was a nice gearbox, and even better engine. Subsequent 3/4 series coupes have been more ugly and, yes quicker, but better cars?
The real travesty here is the downsizing to a less number of cylinder engines. It make me laugh when now you can pay upwards of £50k and still get a crappy four pot. They invariably sound like sh*t and are pathetic wheezing lumps. And yet the manufacturers still charge 6 cylinder prices. Blaming the downsizing on emissions is nonsense. It's all about profits.
As for BMW shifts, I had a E46 330 ci sport manual and it was a nice gearbox, and even better engine. Subsequent 3/4 series coupes have been more ugly and, yes quicker, but better cars?
GTEYE said:
Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?
Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
Agree, you need to go aftermarket, CAE for example Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
E60 m5 and E63 m6I test drove a manual E46 M3 when looking for a replacement for the FN2 Type R I had at the time, the gearbox let the car down and I ended up in a 335i shame as the rest of the car lived up to the hype.
My 323 was worse still, I like three pedals but the auto/dct boxes are far superior to BMW's manual offerings.
My 323 was worse still, I like three pedals but the auto/dct boxes are far superior to BMW's manual offerings.
RDMcG said:
This argument goes on and on everywhere but in the showrooms where interest in manuals continues to decline. As it is today few supercars manual. Major brands from Mercedes to Ferrari have abandoned the manual. Yes Porsche makes a few but this will only continue if there is sufficient demand.
There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.
In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?
I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.
The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5
This is a great post. There was lots of screaming in the US when the E63 M6 with its nice V10 only had the mediocre SMG transmission. BMW gave in and offered a manual. Guess what happened? Yep. Nobody wanted it.
In the waning days of Ferrari's open gate manual there was a time when there was a choice between manual and paddle. What do you think won overwhelmingly?
I keep one manual car because I enjoy a nice sports car. My SUV is full Auto and I also have a PDK. Yes yes Porsche is offering more manuals.
My next car in a couple of years may or my not offent manual. I will definitely go PDK.
The argument will go on but the war is over except for some interesting lower powered cars like the caterham and the MX5
Cars are getting larger, the manual gearbox is dying because people want effortless speed and convenience. Fake engine noise is spreading because people want to waft along in their M car, isolated from the outside world but occasionally reminded of the power. That, and EU laws have twisted the arms of the car companies into downsizing, big NA engines are dead, heck even small ones are few and far between now. Due to the numbers race and competition they have unusable amounts of power you'll very rarely be able to fully exploit on public roads. Computer aids and 'driving modes/adjustment' have replaced the art of creating and engineering a well rounded, multi skilled car. Adjustable dampers, steering, engine noise and mapping means a car can adequately cover sll bases, instead of being just a very good, analogue sportscar. Finance and lease deals mean a car doesn't even have to be any good, it will sell in droves because people aren't spending a big lump of their hard earned savings on a carefully considered purchase and they still get a new badge on the drive. Look how ugly some of the new Mercedes are, and then how many you still see. Designed for posing and sitting in traffic, it's all mpg top trumps, meaningless Nurburgring lap times and BIK rates, not so much B road storming, these are the cars of today and tomorrow.
Rant over.
Rant over.
Edited by Henno196 on Tuesday 25th April 21:59
Ironic that BMW devs were slating the feel of american boxes when BMW manuals are undoubtedly some of the least ergonomic and enjoyable boxes I've ever used. I love manuals but personally with how far removed modern M cars are from a traditional driving experience I really just dont see the point. Even if new ones came with one they would undoubtedly have a big heavy dual mass flywheel, weird clutch delay valve and awkward pedal placement that would make anything but the most lazy of gearchanges an absolute pain. For supposed performance cars, BMW sure do know how to screw up driver ergonomics.
Unless a manual gearbox M-car means a light flywheel, a short, direct and smooth change, well placed pedals for heel/toe and a short ratio gearbox I really don't see the point.
Unless a manual gearbox M-car means a light flywheel, a short, direct and smooth change, well placed pedals for heel/toe and a short ratio gearbox I really don't see the point.
aston addict said:
It's all about car companies making money. Not enough people buy manuals in such cars nowadays so the engineering effort to accommodate a manual gearbox is very costly for such small sales.
The real travesty here is the downsizing to a less number of cylinder engines. It make me laugh when now you can pay upwards of £50k and still get a crappy four pot. They invariably sound like sh*t and are pathetic wheezing lumps. And yet the manufacturers still charge 6 cylinder prices. Blaming the downsizing on emissions is nonsense. It's all about profits.
As for BMW shifts, I had a E46 330 ci sport manual and it was a nice gearbox, and even better engine. Subsequent 3/4 series coupes have been more ugly and, yes quicker, but better cars?
A modern 4cyl turbo is more expensive to design, tool and build than an NA 6cyl....The real travesty here is the downsizing to a less number of cylinder engines. It make me laugh when now you can pay upwards of £50k and still get a crappy four pot. They invariably sound like sh*t and are pathetic wheezing lumps. And yet the manufacturers still charge 6 cylinder prices. Blaming the downsizing on emissions is nonsense. It's all about profits.
As for BMW shifts, I had a E46 330 ci sport manual and it was a nice gearbox, and even better engine. Subsequent 3/4 series coupes have been more ugly and, yes quicker, but better cars?
GTEYE said:
Can anyone honestly name a BMW of the last 20 years or so that had a decent manual box?
Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
I rate the manual in my BMW Z4 highly!Anyone?
That's why they are nearly all auto/double clutch - the manuals are garbage!
Notchy - check
Obstructive - check
Jerky - check
Slow - check
I'm not saying a manual gearbox is garbage, but I've not driven a recent BMW with a decent manual box.
I guess this makes sense. Manual cars and turbos don't really go together. The fact that you have to lift off each shift, you also get turbo lag in between gears. DCTs are becoming useless since they are heavier and are bad for daily driving. The ZF8 auto is almost as quick but so much easier to live with.
skylarking808 said:
I would rather have a manual M3 than one with eight auto gears and 450+ BHP I cant use on the roads anyway.
Why do manufacturers insist on stupid amounts of horsepower increases that need even more tech that distances the driver to put the power down and keep it all on the road?
Auto drive drone cars are well on their way....
This is why every major sporty brand has proper driver cars which they sell along side there phallic extensions. For BMW its there 140M/M2/Z4, for VAG its there Golf GTI/TTRS, All the Japanese brands have baby sports cars to supplement their flagship (370z, Gt86/Brz). All available with manuals in a fun light-ish layout. MB might be the exception but they've always focused on noise over driver focus or performance, something even their current cars do very well. Why do manufacturers insist on stupid amounts of horsepower increases that need even more tech that distances the driver to put the power down and keep it all on the road?
Auto drive drone cars are well on their way....
The cars are there and many journalists acknowledge them, however it's the way they are marketed that they will always loose out on the 'executive' audience who see them as a downgrade.
Edited by caelite on Wednesday 26th April 04:56
[quote]
As for BMW shifts, I had a E46 330 ci sport manual and it was a nice gearbox, and even better engine. Subsequent 3/4 series coupes have been more ugly and, yes quicker, but better cars?
[/quote]
Yes they have become better cars. More refined, more roomy, better mileage, faster of course. If you are single and want a small nippy RWD, you can still get the M2, m240i, m140i, or even a 125i. These are all very decent sporty cars.
As for BMW shifts, I had a E46 330 ci sport manual and it was a nice gearbox, and even better engine. Subsequent 3/4 series coupes have been more ugly and, yes quicker, but better cars?
[/quote]
Yes they have become better cars. More refined, more roomy, better mileage, faster of course. If you are single and want a small nippy RWD, you can still get the M2, m240i, m140i, or even a 125i. These are all very decent sporty cars.
I guess it comes down to perceived progress and the fact that those who've experienced and appreciated a decent manual box are in decline?
There is still a place for a proper manual shift but I fear it will become the reserve of limited models, such as the 911R. Either that, or enthusiasts will simply go with more aftermarket solutions.
I do think it's a shame that the idea of a proper, lightweight, normally aspirated M car is lost on BMW despite some of the rumours in recent years. I guess it all comes down to money but at least some of the aftermarket tuners now cater for that market, so it's not all bad news.
As a bit of a dinosaur though, anything post 1M just don't do it for me, but I do hanker for the days when BMW built special feeling cars where the focus was on what they were like to drive.
There is still a place for a proper manual shift but I fear it will become the reserve of limited models, such as the 911R. Either that, or enthusiasts will simply go with more aftermarket solutions.
I do think it's a shame that the idea of a proper, lightweight, normally aspirated M car is lost on BMW despite some of the rumours in recent years. I guess it all comes down to money but at least some of the aftermarket tuners now cater for that market, so it's not all bad news.
As a bit of a dinosaur though, anything post 1M just don't do it for me, but I do hanker for the days when BMW built special feeling cars where the focus was on what they were like to drive.
In my life there are different sorts of driving. There is the A to B, wife and kids, dog in the boot type driving which I have a 6 year old 520d estate for. It's automatic, and in normal mode one of the slowest witted cars I've ever owned. But it does the job, and I'll probably never sell it.
I have a (BMW) motorcycle for commuting/ the odd tour. This has shift assist which allows clutchless gear shifting. I love it- the best of both worlds on a bike in that you still use your foot in the traditional way, and if you wish you can use the clutch, or you can shift without it (the clutchless shift tends not to work so well on downshifts, but on upshifts you get a great 'blat' sound!)
I then have 2 fun cars, a 997 and an old Alfa. Both are manual. Maybe it is generational, but part of the driving pleasure is in changing gear whether on a track or driving through the twisties. To drive smoothly, and quickly, it requires real mechanical sympathy especially in the Alfa. My 997 is a gen 2 and it took a fair bit of effort finding a manual one in the spec I wanted. But having driven numerous autos/ dsgs in my view it does make driving easier, and no doubt faster; but more fun? I certainly don't think so. I test drove a manual 991 back to back with a dsg version, and good as the dsg is as a car, the experience did lack something. I really didn't rate the 7 speed manual box vs the previous 6 speed though perhaps that is for another thread!
But long live the manual! I'm sure BMW have sound economic reasons for dropping them, but like vinyl to digital via cds, each step up the technology curve left the music experience a little poorer each time.....and look what is happening to vinyl now.....
I have a (BMW) motorcycle for commuting/ the odd tour. This has shift assist which allows clutchless gear shifting. I love it- the best of both worlds on a bike in that you still use your foot in the traditional way, and if you wish you can use the clutch, or you can shift without it (the clutchless shift tends not to work so well on downshifts, but on upshifts you get a great 'blat' sound!)
I then have 2 fun cars, a 997 and an old Alfa. Both are manual. Maybe it is generational, but part of the driving pleasure is in changing gear whether on a track or driving through the twisties. To drive smoothly, and quickly, it requires real mechanical sympathy especially in the Alfa. My 997 is a gen 2 and it took a fair bit of effort finding a manual one in the spec I wanted. But having driven numerous autos/ dsgs in my view it does make driving easier, and no doubt faster; but more fun? I certainly don't think so. I test drove a manual 991 back to back with a dsg version, and good as the dsg is as a car, the experience did lack something. I really didn't rate the 7 speed manual box vs the previous 6 speed though perhaps that is for another thread!
But long live the manual! I'm sure BMW have sound economic reasons for dropping them, but like vinyl to digital via cds, each step up the technology curve left the music experience a little poorer each time.....and look what is happening to vinyl now.....
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff