RE: Porsche 911 GT3 (991.2) : Review

RE: Porsche 911 GT3 (991.2) : Review

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Discussion

tankplanker

2,479 posts

278 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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AndrewD said:
You see this is just myopic. We are a small RHD island and availability is different on the continent. I read a post a day or two ago about somebody going into their local European dealer and ordering one. You can't extrapolate just because we are relatively less able to get the cars because we compete with other affluent RHD markets for the smaller RHD production.

Of course, they won't make unlimited quantities as this is a 2-seat relatively impractical halo model and their capacity goes towards the more mainstream stuff. Would you run your business any differently?
Edited by AndrewD on Thursday 27th April 13:52
If it was my business I'd make more off the more profitable car, so less base model 911s and more GT3s/911Rs where the profit should be higher. If the profit isn't higher (which I find hard to believe) as the market will demonstrably pay more for the halo cars, I'd put up prices to compensate till they did make me more money.

Its an obvious solution to the problem and you have to ask why Porsche don't follow it as it will result in more profitable cars being sold. Only reason I can think of is that they make more money by artificially limiting production across the life cycle of the halo models.

Roma101

835 posts

146 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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boxsey said:
Helicopter123 said:
I have no issue with Porsche releasing investment assets onto the market on an annual basis.

Lots of companies do it.

Cannot understand though why they don't set the initial price 'at market' though?
I don't think they do. They're making more of them then the previous generations. The original 996GT3 was not an investment asset when launched e.g. anyone could order a new 996RS because there was so little interest in them. It's the people/market that have turned the Porsche GT cars into investment assets rather than Porsche themselves. Especially in the UK (it's no where near as bad in mainland Europe I believe). The situation got worse over here with the arrival of the GT4 because it was a 'cheap' GT car that attracted another level of speculator. The GT4 investment experiment went so well (for those that got one) that they alone have doubled the interest in the latest GT3. Demand is now so out of control that Porsche don't have a hope in satisfying the majority that are interested in buying one.

p.s. Really enjoyed the review regardless of me not being in the running for one, ever!
Fair point, but Porsche aren't blameless in all of this. For it is Porsche who still determines who gets to buy one at the end of the day. I am sure many of the 'moaners' would be less peeved if they had a fairer crack of getting one, even if production was still limited.

suffolk009

5,344 posts

164 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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The one aspect everyone seems to be overlooking in all the fascinating chat about supply and demand is that the very restriction that is placed on availability directly affects the halo models very real desirability. It's not just Porsche that do this. Ferrari, McLaren, Bugatti, now Aston and Merc with their super super-cars. They all do it. We just see it more clearly with Porsche becuase they do it with the most affordable cars.

Making the thing near unavailable makes these rich folk want them all the more. As one small-volume car manufacturing boss said to me, "it's all part of the game".

Olivera

7,065 posts

238 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Onehp said:
Digga said:
And why a TVR Tuscan race car with 'only' 450hp still feels blisteringly quick on track - it weighs less than 900kgs.
Without a driver. And an all out race car vs road. But even so, that's light indeed and fast for it!
Interesting to compare TVR Tuscan race car lap times at Brands Hatch Indy versus say a current 991 Carrera Cup car. The TVR Tuscan has a way better power to weight ratio but gets absolutely mullered by the Porsche.

n17ves

591 posts

177 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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mechagran said:
The single best introduction to a car article I have ever read. My thoughts exactly. "I want I want" doesn't get you anywhere. Time to accept you either arent rich enough or important enough - suck it up and stop crying.
.
But its not the "Rich" or the "important" that are priority for GT3's, its the dishonest ones that are offering brown paper bags, weekend breaks, trips to Disney lands and all expense 'evenings' in Geneva! I really didn't want to believe it myself, but from what I now know its disgusting!!

Pishonheads really should do some investigating works on some of the underhand tactics that are going on to gain t an allocation to some of these fantastic cars.


Digga

40,202 posts

282 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Olivera said:
Onehp said:
Digga said:
And why a TVR Tuscan race car with 'only' 450hp still feels blisteringly quick on track - it weighs less than 900kgs.
Without a driver. And an all out race car vs road. But even so, that's light indeed and fast for it!
Interesting to compare TVR Tuscan race car lap times at Brands Hatch Indy versus say a current 991 Carrera Cup car. The TVR Tuscan has a way better power to weight ratio but gets absolutely mullered by the Porsche.
Let's face it, it's a very old chassis design now, and even in its day it wasn't cutting edge (even if it was effective), but I've done a track day at Silverstone in a Tuscan racer and the pace is astonishing.

Dave Hedgehog

14,541 posts

203 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Roma101 said:
Fair point, but Porsche aren't blameless in all of this. For it is Porsche who still determines who gets to buy one at the end of the day. I am sure many of the 'moaners' would be less peeved if they had a fairer crack of getting one, even if production was still limited.
porsche could if they wanted to increase production to stop the panic buying / flipping for massive profit or if they could prevent buyers from selling the cars for a couple of years so that only enthusiasts who wanted to drive them could get them (2 year lease with purchase option at the end)

but they do not want this, its a fantastic for business to have cars sell for double list the moment they come out

but its not just the new buyers who suffer, it artificially keeps the price higher at all levels of second hand buyers and even helps raise the price of other second hand models

its great for porsche, very bad for porsche fans at all levels (unless you have one that is shooting up in value ofc).

n17ves

591 posts

177 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Roma101 said:
Fair point, but Porsche aren't blameless in all of this. For it is Porsche who still determines who gets to buy one at the end of the day. I am sure many of the 'moaners' would be less peeved if they had a fairer crack of getting one, even if production was still limited.
Its not Porsche (GB) the determines who gets a car, they merely supply an allocation to the dealer. Its the dealer (dealer principle) that has the control, but ultimately its the new car sales manager that has made the decision of who shall be the lucky few.

Porsche GB have however have seemingly turned a blind to it all, even when some of the corrupt allocations have been pointed out to them!

boxsey

3,574 posts

209 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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n17ves said:
Roma101 said:
Fair point, but Porsche aren't blameless in all of this. For it is Porsche who still determines who gets to buy one at the end of the day. I am sure many of the 'moaners' would be less peeved if they had a fairer crack of getting one, even if production was still limited.
Its not Porsche (GB) the determines who gets a car, they merely supply an allocation to the dealer. Its the dealer (dealer principle) that has the control, but ultimately its the new car sales manager that has made the decision of who shall be the lucky few.

Porsche GB have however have seemingly turned a blind to it all, even when some of the corrupt allocations have been pointed out to them!
Totally agree that the way some Porsche dealers have responded to this massive demand, that has been thrust upon them by the market, is appalling and often distasteful. The only better/fairer way I can see of allocating them is to announce the day they officially go on sale and sell them on a first come first served basis to those that queue up at the Porsche centre door when it opens up at 9 am. It wouldn't stop the flippers but it would at least allow anyone to have a shot. It works for the latest iphone and the boxing day sales so why not the latest Porsche GT. I'm off to buy a sleeping bag and woolly hat in hope that they take notice. biggrin

MrBarry123

6,025 posts

120 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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n17ves said:
But its not the "Rich" or the "important" that are priority for GT3's, its the dishonest ones that are offering brown paper bags, weekend breaks, trips to Disney lands and all expense 'evenings' in Geneva! I really didn't want to believe it myself, but from what I now know its disgusting!!

Pishonheads really should do some investigating works on some of the underhand tactics that are going on to gain t an allocation to some of these fantastic cars.
This doesn't surprise me and it's disappointing. Ultimately Porsche couldn't care less though because their cars are overhypedsubscribed and the source of constant conversation.

This new GT3 looks great though.

BaronMcLaren

901 posts

148 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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n17ves said:
Roma101 said:
Fair point, but Porsche aren't blameless in all of this. For it is Porsche who still determines who gets to buy one at the end of the day. I am sure many of the 'moaners' would be less peeved if they had a fairer crack of getting one, even if production was still limited.
Its not Porsche (GB) the determines who gets a car, they merely supply an allocation to the dealer. Its the dealer (dealer principle) that has the control, but ultimately its the new car sales manager that has made the decision of who shall be the lucky few.

Porsche GB have however have seemingly turned a blind to it all, even when some of the corrupt allocations have been pointed out to them!
Sounds interesting, share the evidence let us judge for ourselves please.

AndrewD

7,527 posts

283 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
Every single thread. Why? It has been discussed before. To death.

In the meantime, Dan's driven the car. That's news. This is supposed to be a car site. What did people think of the car?

I'll start. That engine. It seems to define the GT3 more so than any other feature. It sounds just amazing, perhaps the start of a new "Mezger" type of era? The torque and the work they did to make everything spin that much more freely is interesting. I find the engine in my RS is still quite tight at 2000 miles and I suspect this new one will make the car more special than the RS.

av185

18,432 posts

126 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
tankplanker said:
f it was my business I'd make more off the more profitable car, so less base model 911s and more GT3s/911Rs where the profit should be higher. If the profit isn't higher (which I find hard to believe) as the market will demonstrably pay more for the halo cars, I'd put up prices to compensate till they did make me more money.

Its an obvious solution to the problem and you have to ask why Porsche don't follow it as it will result in more profitable cars being sold. Only reason I can think of is that they make more money by artificially limiting production across the life cycle of the halo models.
Don't forget Porsche are the marketing masters of the universe.

The GT cars are actually less profitable than you would think. And they are deliberately underpriced to promote the shiny bauble effect getting everyone clamouring for one as the next best thing.

Porsche aren't interested in making say another £30k per car which they could do quite easily on this new GT3. Especially for the limited production UK market which would amount to relative peanuts. The big money comes from brand filtering to lesser lower range vanilla models and resultant increasing sales.

Overall a brilliant business strategy.

Cheib

23,110 posts

174 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
AndrewD said:
Every single thread. Why? It has been discussed before. To death.

In the meantime, Dan's driven the car. That's news. This is supposed to be a car site. What did people think of the car?

I'll start. That engine. It seems to define the GT3 more so than any other feature. It sounds just amazing, perhaps the start of a new "Mezger" type of era? The torque and the work they did to make everything spin that much more freely is interesting. I find the engine in my RS is still quite tight at 2000 miles and I suspect this new one will make the car more special than the RS.
Indeed.

It really does seem this is a very special engine...AP said at Geneva it was and for once he doesn't seem to be exaggerating. From what I heard on a couple of the vids I watched today it sounds amazing....pleasingly even on the in car film.

Chris Harris tweeted it's a better engine than that in the R or RS so you could well be right.

Will be very interesting to see what this car is like with the manual.

Fish

3,974 posts

281 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Really looking forward to driving the car in the flesh.. should be brilliant.

Grantstown

952 posts

86 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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It'd be nice if they could put together a sub-GT3 NA rear drive road car, say 440/450 bhp with a manual option and minus most of the aero kit. A bit of fun for the enthusiast and leave the GT3s for the chosen ones.

Speedgirl

291 posts

166 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Oh blimey. The Great Porsche GT Famine is the gift that keeps on giving. Nice review tho. Good luck to those that get their mitts on one and I'm sure all the nice bits of tech will trickle down into future cooking cars; like the 6 speed box and hollow crankshaft, but not the engine itself. Poor Mr Preuninger must be sad about the N/A getting el chop.

Cheib

23,110 posts

174 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
Grantstown said:
It'd be nice if they could put together a sub-GT3 NA rear drive road car, say 440/450 bhp with a manual option and minus most of the aero kit. A bit of fun for the enthusiast and leave the GT3s for the chosen ones.
That would be a great car....although its pretty much what the 991.1 GTS is if you can find one with a manual box.

Cheib

23,110 posts

174 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Dave Hedgehog said:
Roma101 said:
Fair point, but Porsche aren't blameless in all of this. For it is Porsche who still determines who gets to buy one at the end of the day. I am sure many of the 'moaners' would be less peeved if they had a fairer crack of getting one, even if production was still limited.
porsche could if they wanted to increase production to stop the panic buying / flipping for massive profit or if they could prevent buyers from selling the cars for a couple of years so that only enthusiasts who wanted to drive them could get them (2 year lease with purchase option at the end)

but they do not want this, its a fantastic for business to have cars sell for double list the moment they come out

but its not just the new buyers who suffer, it artificially keeps the price higher at all levels of second hand buyers and even helps raise the price of other second hand models

its great for porsche, very bad for porsche fans at all levels (unless you have one that is shooting up in value ofc).
Porsche don't really have the production capacity to make enough cars to satisfy demand...they only sell what 13,000 cars or so in the UK each year of which about 3,000 are 911's and 400 or so of them are GT3's. They can sell every single one of the "sports cars" they can get their hands on. There are an awful lot of people that want a 911 or Cayman, can't afford a GT3 and wouldn't be happy if Porsche doubled production of the GT3 which meant the customers for "normal" sports cars would have to wait for a year or more to get there cars !

Porsche sell the GT3 as a halo product and it works very well for them.

The only thing Porsche can really do is say move the GT3 up to the price of a 911 Turbo but they've clearly decided they can extract more value (not necessarilly direct profit) out of pricing the GT3 as they do.

jayemm89

4,001 posts

129 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Seeing as PH are ranting at ME, the reader, I'll rant back.

Limited edition cars are supposed to be the best of the best, the tip-top whatever. Prior to a couple of years ago, the GT3 was never that. It is not supply and demand, it is an artificial restriction of the marketplace in order to create stupid used car values and ride the current wave of hysteria regarding classic cars etc....

I suspect the moment the car market tanks (it's happened before and it will happen again), suddenly Porsche will be happy to sell anyone with money a car. That's the situation they should be in presently. GT3s were always limited because not a lot of people actually wanted one. That's how it is meant to be. A car for the FEW to be driven, not for the MANY to fight over, pay twice list to buy and then stick in the garage for fear of falling residuals.

Just look at the Cayman GT4 market. "Best driver's car ever" many places said. 17 for sale on the OPC used list, most with less than 6,000 miles on. Some considerably less. Guess they're not being driven. That is a tragedy. One Porsche created. Boo.