Internal combustion engine days are numbered.
Discussion
rolando said:
No problem now STOR (short term operating reserve) diesel generator sets are being installed all over the place, spewing out tonnes of pollution. …and we subsidise them.
EVs don't need STOR.They ARE STOR.
Energy wil be pulled BACK from the EVs to even out peaks in demand. At 2 AM, the EVs can take all the energy they need, because no one else is drawing power at that time.
Big GT said:
However what I struggle with is how we all going to be able to charge up...at the same time.
Not really any different than the current situation - there is nowhere near enough refined petrol in circulation at any one time to fill every fuel tank in the country. The system works precisely because people don't all decide to fill their cars from empty to full at exactly the same time. The average car travels about 20 miles a day so will only need recharging 20 miles' worth of electricity every day - about 7kwh. It's significant, certainly, but an order of magnitude less significant than everyone trying to fully charge their cars at once. To put it another way, if cars are charged over night, each car will be drawing an average of 0.5-1kw while they're plugged in. About the same as when I manage to leave my garage lights on accidentally. We don't have enough overall grid capacity to run every car from it comfortably, but we're not far off as long as they are charged off-peak. If we don't have enough extra off-peak capacity by 2050 to deal with the huge majority of cars being electric, we'll be getting brown-outs at peak times anyway, irrespective of EVs.
Edited by kambites on Friday 28th April 19:56
rolando said:
Hainey said:
Really? Not doubting you but I've never heard of that. Where are they getting installed?
There's one in Fremington (N Devon) and a planning application in near Witheridge in a really sparsely populated area. The gov't policy was designed to attract the building of CCGT stations but, because of a loophole in EU rules, the renewables cowboys, now that wind and solar farms are no longer an attractive proposition, have found that diesel generators are a cheap alternative way to cash in on the subsidies.Hainey said:
Thanks for that. Pretty astonishing we are falling back on old tech to keep the new tech running. Im sure those generators are as clean as a modern diesel road engine. Sure of it.
They're probably cleaner because they will be designed to run in a much more tightly controlled operating window... but being cleaner than a modern diesel road-car engine isn't much to be proud of, though. 
The diesel banks are there to deal with exceptional short-term loads, if they're ever being used for routine supply something has gone very wrong (which isn't to say it wont happen).
rolando said:
Hainey said:
Really? Not doubting you but I've never heard of that. Where are they getting installed?
There's one in Fremington (N Devon) and a planning application in near Witheridge in a really sparsely populated area. The gov't policy was designed to attract the building of CCGT stations but, because of a loophole in EU rules, the renewables cowboys, now that wind and solar farms are no longer an attractive proposition, have found that diesel generators are a cheap alternative way to cash in on the subsidies.
You are conflating STOR and the Capacity Market a little. STOR is perfect for diesel and reciprocating natural gas gensets, the idea is they run very rarely. As in not at all in some years, although quite tellingly there has been a lot more demands on some STOR participants in the first quarter of this year compared to the previous twelve months. You're paid to be there on standby as a last resort.
Peaking plants actually run when the market price makes it profitable, and may or may not participate in the Capacity Market to get that income stream. The government had hoped to incentivise the building proper power stations with the CM but f
ked it up, as always, and almost all entries are existing plants who push the auction price down as the income is just "nice to have".I can't say I see how the EU had anything to do with it, unless you mean the requirement that National Grid is technology agnostic? That's quite a sensible policy. As far as I'm aware our entire lack of energy strategy is 100% a domestic f
k up.The DNOs are all very well aware of the infrastructure demands that electric vehicles will put on the local grid, which is a separate issue.
Edited by dme123 on Friday 28th April 20:50
BOR said:
rolando said:
No problem now STOR (short term operating reserve) diesel generator sets are being installed all over the place, spewing out tonnes of pollution. …and we subsidise them.
EVs don't need STOR.They ARE STOR.
Energy wil be pulled BACK from the EVs to even out peaks in demand. At 2 AM, the EVs can take all the energy they need, because no one else is drawing power at that time.
A - peak electricity demand times roughly correspond with peak vehicle usage times
B - you'd be pretty f
ked off if you wanted to use your vehicle but it was partially discharged due to being used for STORC - you're wearing peoples batteries for sod all benefit to them
D - the amount of money you could offer an individual for making their vehicle available for this is a pittance, you'd be a fool to accept it. Even at the peakest of peak times wholesale power is £150 per MWHr. All the energy in your car battery is thus worth £1.50 at best if you have a 100KWHr battery and drain it flat. Most of the time it peaks at around £80 per MWHr so 80p a day, max, for wearing your battery and having your car flat when you need it.
E - massive infrastructure changes needed at DNO level to faciliate this much distributed generation and the metering for it, who is going to fund this?
F - none of the crackpots who pitch this are within a million miles of having a framework for the operational and commercial side
G - buy in from car manufacturers to allow power flow through the charge port in either direction
Edited by dme123 on Saturday 29th April 00:15
EV's have zero TAILPIPE emissions. they don't and never will have, zero emissions.
The government is going to find itself in the same mess it got itself into with diesel, by ignoring the basic science, which means the general public, fail to grasp and understand the important factors involved.
The government is going to find itself in the same mess it got itself into with diesel, by ignoring the basic science, which means the general public, fail to grasp and understand the important factors involved.
BOR said:
EVs don't need STOR.
They ARE STOR.
Energy wil be pulled BACK from the EVs to even out peaks in demand. At 2 AM, the EVs can take all the energy they need, because no one else is drawing power at that time.
Perfect example of the sort of delusional future visions eco-nutters have.They ARE STOR.
Energy wil be pulled BACK from the EVs to even out peaks in demand. At 2 AM, the EVs can take all the energy they need, because no one else is drawing power at that time.
It will never work on a national scale - just plug your brain in, never mind your fossil fuel charged EV.
1970 fantastic let's make a big car using lots of petrol
1973 oh whoops there's some issue with OPEC giving us fuel
1976 this petrol stuff has some lead in it, that's not good better ban that then
1990's really? This petrol stuff is a bit naughty,how about diesel.
2000 on, look really take the diesel it's better than petrol
2005 look seriously take the diesel one or we will seriously empty your pay packet
2016 ok the diesel is a bit nasty so please buy an ev
2017 please pretty please
2019 actually we have no idea how to sort this out, so give us some tax, in fact give your local authority some tax,because they know best.....
1973 oh whoops there's some issue with OPEC giving us fuel
1976 this petrol stuff has some lead in it, that's not good better ban that then
1990's really? This petrol stuff is a bit naughty,how about diesel.
2000 on, look really take the diesel it's better than petrol
2005 look seriously take the diesel one or we will seriously empty your pay packet
2016 ok the diesel is a bit nasty so please buy an ev
2017 please pretty please
2019 actually we have no idea how to sort this out, so give us some tax, in fact give your local authority some tax,because they know best.....
Well, OK, electric cars do have an impact on the environment and on emissions in various ways:
(i) the energy used to manufacture the components that go into them
(ii) the environmental impact of mining those components (e.g. lithium for batteries - but who cares over here, many of the elements in electronic devices come from poor or war-torn countries where environmental contamination isn't our problem, e.g. lithium in Bolivia, tin in DR Congo. Tongue firmly in cheek of course.)
(iii) any fossil fuels used in the generation of the electricity that charges the batteries
(iv) contamination from tyre and brake wear (more the former than the latter, since electric cars ought to use regenerative braking) but over its lifetime a single tyre can lose a few kilograms of weight in the form of tiny particulate matter
(v) disposing of batteries and cars at the end of product life
Electric vehicles are not totally "clean" - though they are an order of magnitude cleaner than diesels, and as emissions from burning fuels get stricter, the relative proportion of combustion to non-combustion (ie brakes, tyres etc) emissions starts to tilt away from combustion products.
For fleet use and commuting, where a car is driven around a city all day, can be charged up overnight, never or rarely does more than 100 miles or so in one go and the owner/driver can connect it to a charging point outside their house or at their place of work, electric vehicles are already closing in on the tipping point of becoming a no brainer. Let's compare the costs over two years of ownership of a fully electric Hyundai Ioniq and a Hyundai i30 (possibly the closest equivalent petrol equivalent) driving 100 miles a day five days a week 50 weeks of the year at say 40mpg.
(*) includes £4500 green car rebate - advertised cost is £25000
Add in an extra £5000 for congestion charge for the petrol version if you drive in central London every day and the cost comparison over two years goes from £21000 for the EV versus £28000 for the ICE.
And over a seven year car lifespan the electric vehicle costs around £27000 to buy and fuel versus £54000 for the petrol car.
At this point I'd be seriously tempted to consider buying a Tesla, except that I've only ever seen two on the roads so far - and both have been on the back of recovery vehicles, so there's still a bit of a learning curve somewhere.
(i) the energy used to manufacture the components that go into them
(ii) the environmental impact of mining those components (e.g. lithium for batteries - but who cares over here, many of the elements in electronic devices come from poor or war-torn countries where environmental contamination isn't our problem, e.g. lithium in Bolivia, tin in DR Congo. Tongue firmly in cheek of course.)
(iii) any fossil fuels used in the generation of the electricity that charges the batteries
(iv) contamination from tyre and brake wear (more the former than the latter, since electric cars ought to use regenerative braking) but over its lifetime a single tyre can lose a few kilograms of weight in the form of tiny particulate matter
(v) disposing of batteries and cars at the end of product life
Electric vehicles are not totally "clean" - though they are an order of magnitude cleaner than diesels, and as emissions from burning fuels get stricter, the relative proportion of combustion to non-combustion (ie brakes, tyres etc) emissions starts to tilt away from combustion products.
For fleet use and commuting, where a car is driven around a city all day, can be charged up overnight, never or rarely does more than 100 miles or so in one go and the owner/driver can connect it to a charging point outside their house or at their place of work, electric vehicles are already closing in on the tipping point of becoming a no brainer. Let's compare the costs over two years of ownership of a fully electric Hyundai Ioniq and a Hyundai i30 (possibly the closest equivalent petrol equivalent) driving 100 miles a day five days a week 50 weeks of the year at say 40mpg.
| Cost | IONIQ | i30 |
| Purchase | £20500(*) | £17000 |
| Fuel | £500 | £6000 |
| TOTAL | £21000 | £23000 |
(*) includes £4500 green car rebate - advertised cost is £25000
Add in an extra £5000 for congestion charge for the petrol version if you drive in central London every day and the cost comparison over two years goes from £21000 for the EV versus £28000 for the ICE.
And over a seven year car lifespan the electric vehicle costs around £27000 to buy and fuel versus £54000 for the petrol car.
At this point I'd be seriously tempted to consider buying a Tesla, except that I've only ever seen two on the roads so far - and both have been on the back of recovery vehicles, so there's still a bit of a learning curve somewhere.
ashleyman said:
I live in a block of 48 flats.
I park my car on the road.
How am I going to charge my car when I go to sleep? Run an extension cable out my window and over to my car? Doubt it.
It's part of the Westminster dream of a future without emissions, or poor people. Didn't you hear? I park my car on the road.
How am I going to charge my car when I go to sleep? Run an extension cable out my window and over to my car? Doubt it.
caelite said:
ashleyman said:
I live in a block of 48 flats.
I park my car on the road.
How am I going to charge my car when I go to sleep? Run an extension cable out my window and over to my car? Doubt it.
It's part of the Westminster dream of a future without emissions, or poor people. Didn't you hear? I park my car on the road.
How am I going to charge my car when I go to sleep? Run an extension cable out my window and over to my car? Doubt it.
If petrol cars are banned from the highway, I will move house to live on a race circuit. If petrol is banned on a race circuit i'll convert to ethanol. If buying, making, burning ethanol, alcohol, methanol in combustion engines is banned , I will fit A Team type bull bars, Arm myself heavily and still drive to the sweet music that only hydrocarbons can make.
Don't worry though guys, long after I'm taken down by Robocop in in what will be known as the Euro 9 compliance shootout you will still be able to enjoys the bellowing black smoke pouring out of crappy old lorries, buses and my personal favourite, the 1970's intercity diesel trains which I think will outlive humanity its self
Don't worry though guys, long after I'm taken down by Robocop in in what will be known as the Euro 9 compliance shootout you will still be able to enjoys the bellowing black smoke pouring out of crappy old lorries, buses and my personal favourite, the 1970's intercity diesel trains which I think will outlive humanity its self
Hafod said:
my personal favourite, the 1970's intercity diesel trains which I think will outlive humanity its self
A colleague of mine recently made a trip to Cardiff, and commented that he hadn't been there since 1976 and is fairly certain he travelled on exactly the same train then too 
At least they have replaced the old Paxman engines now, so they don't make that screaming noise as they leave the station.
Edited by dme123 on Saturday 29th April 07:38
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