RE: Honda Integra Type R (DC2): PH Heroes
Discussion
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you get the ideagreenarrow said:
Also funny how when the ITR came out, I don't recall it winning any awards, but its legend seemed to grow at the end of its life cycle and afterwards. Autocar actually gave the nod to a Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo in their twin test, a copy of which I still own! I wonder if they regret that now!
Having owned a Fiat Coupé 20V Turbo and a DC2 I will say that the Fiat was a nicer everyday driver, but for driving, the Teg was on another level. The Teg was the Swiss watch of affordable performance cars; honed to perfection. I've bought, owned and then sold many cars over the years (it's an addiction) but of them all I only regret selling a red DC2 I had a few years ago. It took my ages to buy it off the owner and it was truly in 'time warp' condition with 30,000 miles on the clock. It was as close to new as I think you'd ever find. I actually sold it because of the condition, I just couldn't enjoy it. Wish I had kept it and just used and enjoyed it. I don't remember being blown away by it, it felt very big and heavy but maybe that's because I had just owned an MX5 but there is definitely something very special about them and the engine was beautiful.
Turning Japanese said:
I've bought, owned and then sold many cars over the years (it's an addiction) but of them all I only regret selling a red DC2 I had a few years ago. It took my ages to buy it off the owner and it was truly in 'time warp' condition with 30,000 miles on the clock. It was as close to new as I think you'd ever find. I actually sold it because of the condition, I just couldn't enjoy it. Wish I had kept it and just used and enjoyed it. I don't remember being blown away by it, it felt very big and heavy but maybe that's because I had just owned an MX5 but there is definitely something very special about them and the engine was beautiful.
I still regret selling that to you. chrismc1977 said:
It all comes down to personal taste- Clio has 200+cc on the ITR so will feel more torquey low down but all out there is little in it....the aerodynamics of the Honda help at higher speeds & mine never feels gutless off VTEC
The Integra just 'feels' more special, rare & bespoke to me- no comparison with build quality & the engine is a gem.
So it's a little busy & feels short-geared maybe- but that's the whole VTEC essence. It's just an oversized bike engine. It absolutely thrives on revs & doesn't hit its rev limiter until 8400 so I don't get why folk get so bent out of shape that it pulls more revs whilst cruising. Relaxing- maybe not, but a standard car is hardly a noisy, bone-shaking buzzy tin. I actually find the B-series amazingly smooth for a 4 pot
The R&D & heritage of the Integra also sets it apart
As for toys- I don't think many ITR owners care much for them, it's all about the drive...
When it's your only car and you're using it daily, it looses it's shine imo, don't get me wrong on the right road I loved it. I never tracked it so that could have changed my opinion entirely and it probably didn't help that I'd came from a few cars before it that were more powerful, lighter and turbo'd.The Integra just 'feels' more special, rare & bespoke to me- no comparison with build quality & the engine is a gem.
So it's a little busy & feels short-geared maybe- but that's the whole VTEC essence. It's just an oversized bike engine. It absolutely thrives on revs & doesn't hit its rev limiter until 8400 so I don't get why folk get so bent out of shape that it pulls more revs whilst cruising. Relaxing- maybe not, but a standard car is hardly a noisy, bone-shaking buzzy tin. I actually find the B-series amazingly smooth for a 4 pot
The R&D & heritage of the Integra also sets it apart
As for toys- I don't think many ITR owners care much for them, it's all about the drive...
Addymk2 said:
...it probably didn't help that I'd came from a few cars before it that were more powerful, lighter and turbo'd.
That makes sense.By modern standards the mid-range is ridiculously thin on torque (it was enough but not generous by early-2000s standards), and that's the bit that you do have to accept / drive around, esp. if a daily driver.
But if that's the only compromise, for me it's a far more acceptable one than the anodyne / carbon-copy soullessness that is modern turbo-4 hot-hatches*.
* I include the outgoing CTR in that statement, and the Golf-R. Both immensely capable and quick but comparatively unengaging at even-remotely legal speeds.
chrismc1977 said:
Addymk2 said:
SidewaysSi said:
It got better with force through the diff. Pure speed e.g. a motorway didn't help it so it often felt surprisingly muted when it should have been bubbling with feel. I really liked my Integra, did 50k miles in 4 years on road and track but the steering was poor. There are other power steered cars which I much prefer.
However, I do think it is a good car but never as engaging as my old 205 GTI for instance. And being honest I do prefer the rear drive balance and chassis of my current E36 328i and even it's low speed steering feel.
The Honda is /was a great car but not IMO as brilliant as people make out if you like truly hardcore cars. But admittedly for sub £8k they are hard to beat out of the box.
I am thinking of a cheap hot hatch soon and will probably go for a Clio or some description rather than revisit the Integra.
I've had my Clio bordering on 2 years now, 182 non cup with cooksport springs. I sold the Teg after 6 months.However, I do think it is a good car but never as engaging as my old 205 GTI for instance. And being honest I do prefer the rear drive balance and chassis of my current E36 328i and even it's low speed steering feel.
The Honda is /was a great car but not IMO as brilliant as people make out if you like truly hardcore cars. But admittedly for sub £8k they are hard to beat out of the box.
I am thinking of a cheap hot hatch soon and will probably go for a Clio or some description rather than revisit the Integra.
It's more practical than the Teg, has toys etc. It's quieter at a cruise I prefer the engine (a lot more low down torque) and still rev happy.
VTECs always felt like an EXTREMELY laggy turbo in my opinion.
The Integra just 'feels' more special, rare & bespoke to me- no comparison with build quality & the engine is a gem.
So it's a little busy & feels short-geared maybe- but that's the whole VTEC essence. It's just an oversized bike engine. It absolutely thrives on revs & doesn't hit its rev limiter until 8400 so I don't get why folk get so bent out of shape that it pulls more revs whilst cruising. Relaxing- maybe not, but a standard car is hardly a noisy, bone-shaking buzzy tin. I actually find the B-series amazingly smooth for a 4 pot
The R&D & heritage of the Integra also sets it apart
As for toys- I don't think many ITR owners care much for them, it's all about the drive...
Having had both, the Clio 182 does not compare with the integra in any way except having roughly equivalent performance. The integra for me has a better engine, gearbox, has better handling and a standard fit LSD, and better standard brakes. It sounds much better and is more exciting to drive and is more reliable and better made. It has better seats and a better driving position. It doesn't have a bus steering wheel and has a Titanium gear knob which feels great in use. You can go just as quickly in a Clio but it is about 10x less fun and satisfying to do so. The integra for me is every bit as good as it was made out to be. Definitely in my top 3 or 4 cars.
I adored mine and owned it for seven years, having sold it to a fellow petrolhead two years ago.
I never really gelled with the looks, but as a driver's car, despite "only" being FWD, I thought it was exceptional.
It needed tyres with stiff sidewalls to bring the steering alive. When the oem spec Bridgestone RE010 stopped being made, I moved to Yokohama Advan 08. One winter I tried some Vredestein winter tyres for a few months and it ruined the handling and steering feel (I didn't expect them to be ideal for handling but it was genuinely like driving a different car).
I had it rebushed, new TREs, ball joints, springs, dampers etc etc and it felt so alive and brimming with feel after the refresh.
An engine that loved to rev and rev, a great gear change, brilliant seats (for a road car) and an exquisitely controlled ride (the rebush transformed the ride quality) with a very neutral handling balance. The harder it was driven, the better it seemed to feel.
They are so sensitive to tyres (more so than most cars I found) and suspension condition.
We have a Clio 182 in the family which we love but on the right road, the Integra felt more involving.
I will always hold it in high regard and miss it tremendously.
I never really gelled with the looks, but as a driver's car, despite "only" being FWD, I thought it was exceptional.
It needed tyres with stiff sidewalls to bring the steering alive. When the oem spec Bridgestone RE010 stopped being made, I moved to Yokohama Advan 08. One winter I tried some Vredestein winter tyres for a few months and it ruined the handling and steering feel (I didn't expect them to be ideal for handling but it was genuinely like driving a different car).
I had it rebushed, new TREs, ball joints, springs, dampers etc etc and it felt so alive and brimming with feel after the refresh.
An engine that loved to rev and rev, a great gear change, brilliant seats (for a road car) and an exquisitely controlled ride (the rebush transformed the ride quality) with a very neutral handling balance. The harder it was driven, the better it seemed to feel.
They are so sensitive to tyres (more so than most cars I found) and suspension condition.
We have a Clio 182 in the family which we love but on the right road, the Integra felt more involving.
I will always hold it in high regard and miss it tremendously.
TameRacingDriver said:
I wouldn't say a Clio 182 is much more torquey at low revs, mine felt as flat as a fart below 5000 in much the same way an ITR would. Remember because you have 9000 revs to play with, the overall gearing is much shorter in the integra which more than makes up for its lack of paper torque figures.
Having had both, the Clio 182 does not compare with the integra in any way except having roughly equivalent performance. The integra for me has a better engine, gearbox, has better handling and a standard fit LSD, and better standard brakes. It sounds much better and is more exciting to drive and is more reliable and better made. It has better seats and a better driving position. It doesn't have a bus steering wheel and has a Titanium gear knob which feels great in use. You can go just as quickly in a Clio but it is about 10x less fun and satisfying to do so. The integra for me is every bit as good as it was made out to be. Definitely in my top 3 or 4 cars.
I'll be honest, I think I'm one of the minority thats not a VTEC fan. It's always felt like the epitome of lag and as a road car, the Clios torque band makes its performance more accessible.Having had both, the Clio 182 does not compare with the integra in any way except having roughly equivalent performance. The integra for me has a better engine, gearbox, has better handling and a standard fit LSD, and better standard brakes. It sounds much better and is more exciting to drive and is more reliable and better made. It has better seats and a better driving position. It doesn't have a bus steering wheel and has a Titanium gear knob which feels great in use. You can go just as quickly in a Clio but it is about 10x less fun and satisfying to do so. The integra for me is every bit as good as it was made out to be. Definitely in my top 3 or 4 cars.
Talking like this is making me feel as old as fudge. I could just be getting fat and lazy.
Turning Japanese said:
It's funny the GT86 doesn't get the same praise as the Integra but maybe that will come with time or maybe Toyota/Subaru are just too late to the party?
I think a main complaint is that the GT86 engine is just not in the same league as one of the Honda B or K series lump, doesn't sound as good, not as aggressive, doesn't rev as high. I think if it had an s2000 engine (or similar) it would have been absolutely perfect!Despite that I see quite a few so don't see them as hugely unpopular. I'll have a look myself if ever I need a car that can potentially be as involving as my mr2 but need some practicality.
Addymk2 said:
I'll be honest, I think I'm one of the minority thats not a VTEC fan. It's always felt like the epitome of lag and as a road car, the Clios torque band makes its performance more accessible.
Talking like this is making me feel as old as fudge. I could just be getting fat and lazy.
The Clio was the same though. Nothing until 5000 revs and then it pulled up its skirt; the Clio definitely has a VTEC style kick at 5,000. The Type R stuff is exactly the same, it just revs higher, and sounds better in the process. It was still slower than your average TDI below that. The engine characteristics between the two are extremely similar. Even more so in the later cars.Talking like this is making me feel as old as fudge. I could just be getting fat and lazy.
One of my favourite cars ever. I can't really imagine life without one.
Had mine going on 5 years now. Started out as a standard UKDM road car with FHSH, now has a DC5 engine and weighs 200kg less than stock.
It came on the Rotas, but was stock apart from that. Interestingly my car never actually had the stock 15" alloys. The first owner fitted brand new 17" EP3 alloys to it from new, then the previous owner before me sacked those off for the 15s fitted above.
Now it's done about 20 trackdays including Spa, Donington, Brands, Croft, Combe, Oulton, and Cadwell Park a fair few times. 6 Nurburgring trips, to which my best time so far is 8:00BTG.
Something really stuck with me about the DC2 that not many other cars did. I've probably spent more than enough on it over the past 5 years, easily enough to have something much nicer, but I doubt it would be half as fun.
Had mine going on 5 years now. Started out as a standard UKDM road car with FHSH, now has a DC5 engine and weighs 200kg less than stock.
It came on the Rotas, but was stock apart from that. Interestingly my car never actually had the stock 15" alloys. The first owner fitted brand new 17" EP3 alloys to it from new, then the previous owner before me sacked those off for the 15s fitted above.
Now it's done about 20 trackdays including Spa, Donington, Brands, Croft, Combe, Oulton, and Cadwell Park a fair few times. 6 Nurburgring trips, to which my best time so far is 8:00BTG.
Something really stuck with me about the DC2 that not many other cars did. I've probably spent more than enough on it over the past 5 years, easily enough to have something much nicer, but I doubt it would be half as fun.
dannyDC2 said:
One of my favourite cars ever. I can't really imagine life without one.
Had mine going on 5 years now. Started out as a standard UKDM road car with FHSH, now has a DC5 engine and weighs 200kg less than stock.
It came on the Rotas, but was stock apart from that. Interestingly my car never actually had the stock 15" alloys. The first owner fitted brand new 17" EP3 alloys to it from new, then the previous owner before me sacked those off for the 15s fitted above.
Now it's done about 20 trackdays including Spa, Donington, Brands, Croft, Combe, Oulton, and Cadwell Park a fair few times. 6 Nurburgring trips, to which my best time so far is 8:00BTG.
Something really stuck with me about the DC2 that not many other cars did. I've probably spent more than enough on it over the past 5 years, easily enough to have something much nicer, but I doubt it would be half as fun.
The recent vid of you and the other Honda's is one of the best ring vids I've ever seen mate. Keep up the good work and DC2 love!Had mine going on 5 years now. Started out as a standard UKDM road car with FHSH, now has a DC5 engine and weighs 200kg less than stock.
It came on the Rotas, but was stock apart from that. Interestingly my car never actually had the stock 15" alloys. The first owner fitted brand new 17" EP3 alloys to it from new, then the previous owner before me sacked those off for the 15s fitted above.
Now it's done about 20 trackdays including Spa, Donington, Brands, Croft, Combe, Oulton, and Cadwell Park a fair few times. 6 Nurburgring trips, to which my best time so far is 8:00BTG.
Something really stuck with me about the DC2 that not many other cars did. I've probably spent more than enough on it over the past 5 years, easily enough to have something much nicer, but I doubt it would be half as fun.
Adamcrs said:
My 1998 UKDM Teg. Original and unmodified, 46k miles.
That's beautiful! My first Integra was UK No. 00018, so was on an 'R' plate also.... unfortunately, like so many Integras (especially UK model) I understand that R944 OAN no longer exists? Its worth noting that whilst mechanically these cars are fairly sound - the bodyshells are so prone to rusting, that any car that's spent any period of time outside is likely to show signs of some rust...... if there's a few rust bubbles on the rear quarter down by the 'TypeR' decal then its likely some serious cutting & welding is required.A lot of people are a quite non-plussed about the Integra's looks, but I think they are quite a pleasing shape with crisp, non-fussy lines - certainly not offensive, like the forthcoming Civic TypeR!
The Integra driven in this PH review is/was my 2nd Integra - purchased back in 2010 on 27k miles, it was my daily driver up until the end of last year when Honda brought it off me. I can quite understand those comments about how familiarity breeds contempt for these cars.... after a while driving backwards & forwards to work over pot-holed roads - the firm suspension, low gearing, seats that are less than easy to get & out of (without damaging the bolster) & even the odd things like the car's poor turning circle makes it on occasions, an irksome & often annoying companion.... even the car's LSD oddly makes driving in snow a bit of a bother! After a while you do wonder what all the fuss is about..... then you suddenly find a road that suits the Integra just perfectly - one that's not so wide and flowing that it makes the Integra's 189bhp seems a bit feeble, or one that's too tight & twisty to keep the engine buzzing in the Vtec zone.... only then does the car suddenly comes alive & make complete sense - goading you to push it harder & providing you with uncanny levels of grip, poise & adjustability - with increased speed so does the ITR's ability to soak up & maintain composure over bumps & undulations in the road... in my view it really is up there with the greatest driver's cars & on this specific road you really to feel that little else could touch you.
X256 CLC as captured the last time I drove it..... & yes I made sure I 'enjoyed' it
Edited by DerbyDan on Tuesday 2nd May 12:49
Edited by DerbyDan on Tuesday 2nd May 13:01
Addymk2 said:
I've had my Clio bordering on 2 years now, 182 non cup with cooksport springs. I sold the Teg after 6 months.
It's more practical than the Teg, has toys etc. It's quieter at a cruise I prefer the engine (a lot more low down torque) and still rev happy.
VTECs always felt like an EXTREMELY laggy turbo in my opinion.
I understand VTEC is an acquired taste, but I have never understood people referring to lag. If you’re experiencing lag you’re not driving the car as it was designed.It's more practical than the Teg, has toys etc. It's quieter at a cruise I prefer the engine (a lot more low down torque) and still rev happy.
VTECs always felt like an EXTREMELY laggy turbo in my opinion.
The B series cars will happily cruise around at low RPM, but when you’re in the mood will wake up and provide one of the best noises from any mass-produced four cylinder engine. Change up just before the redline and you will be straight back into VTEC; and thus experience no perceived lag.
I haven’t driven an Integra but have owned and driven many B series equipped cars including owning an EG Civic with a B16A2. Keeping that car in VTEC on a twisty B road was a joy in part due to the beautiful gear change; and when you weren’t in the mood it would happily cruise around in traffic all day long. It wasn’t the most refined car but then it wasn’t designed to be.
I have also owned a Clio Sport 182 and have driven two friends’ cars. This will be an unpopular view: but I thought the car was awful. The engine was flat with similar traits at low RPM to the VTEC engines, but with no top-end spark. It also felt coarse and made a horrible racket when revved out. The driving position was crap, with the seat too high and too close to the steering wheel, and the wheel itself at a strange angle and too big.
I will admit it is a better everyday proposition than the Integra but they were never direct competition – the Clio’s competition was the EP3 Civic Type R. The Clio had a good chassis; and I suspect I would enjoy a Clio Trophy much more with the improved driving position, but unfortunately I have never understood the hype surrounding the standard car.
I guess it comes down to personal preference, and like you don’t gel with VTEC, I couldn’t gel with the Clio.
I Purchased one of these in Black, brand new from Norton Way Honda in Letchworth early 2000.
As a very young 20 something I ragged the crap out of it, never serviced it at the correct intervals and didn't really look after it, although the exterior was in great condition,I ended up selling it in 2005 for £5800 with 38k on the clock.
I see the resale values nowadays for the DC2 and good examples are fetching a fair price.
I have very fond memories of this car and in some way pine for another one, although rose tinted glasses may play a part in that, I sometimes wonder if it would be as good as I remember or feel as quick considering the car I drive now has nearly four times the Horsepower.
Quick side story on the purchase, when I first saw one I knew I had to have one, I went to Bedford Honda and looked around the showroom model, the sale guys came up to me, ruffled my hair and said, one day sunshine you will be able to afford one of these!
I left and went to Honda in Letchworth and purchased it from them a week later, the day I collected it, brand spanking new I drove back to Bedford Honda, parked right out the front and saw the same salesman who had patronised me earlier, I pointed out the window and said, see that, I bought that from another dealer and you lost a sale from me, the look on his face was enough for me.
So Mr Bedford Honda dealer if you are still around or find this post it would be good to hear your thoughts from all those years ago!.
As a very young 20 something I ragged the crap out of it, never serviced it at the correct intervals and didn't really look after it, although the exterior was in great condition,I ended up selling it in 2005 for £5800 with 38k on the clock.
I see the resale values nowadays for the DC2 and good examples are fetching a fair price.
I have very fond memories of this car and in some way pine for another one, although rose tinted glasses may play a part in that, I sometimes wonder if it would be as good as I remember or feel as quick considering the car I drive now has nearly four times the Horsepower.
Quick side story on the purchase, when I first saw one I knew I had to have one, I went to Bedford Honda and looked around the showroom model, the sale guys came up to me, ruffled my hair and said, one day sunshine you will be able to afford one of these!
I left and went to Honda in Letchworth and purchased it from them a week later, the day I collected it, brand spanking new I drove back to Bedford Honda, parked right out the front and saw the same salesman who had patronised me earlier, I pointed out the window and said, see that, I bought that from another dealer and you lost a sale from me, the look on his face was enough for me.
So Mr Bedford Honda dealer if you are still around or find this post it would be good to hear your thoughts from all those years ago!.
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