RE: Porsche 911 GT3 manual: Review
Discussion
Slipping wrong gear going up the box, or accidentally selecting neutral are all potential hazards whilst accelerating. Then there's the money-shot downshift; failure to correctly select and match engine speed and ratios, where you drop the clutch under braking and the momentum pulls the revs over the top.
Olivera said:
You are failing to understand how this works. The engine revs are not too high until the (too low) gear is engaged and the clutch is brought up. Then the speed at the wheels transmitted through the (too low) gearing mechanically over revs the engine.
If you want to prevent this then there is a perfect solution - PDK.
Nope not failing to understand, all it would take is some sort of sensor on the gear linkage to detect the movement of the gear stick, if it detects you are moving the lever incorrectly and slotting into 3rd rather than 5th, it intervenes before the gear is fully slotted home and you disengage the clutch. If you want to prevent this then there is a perfect solution - PDK.
You can get manual boxes which can auto blip the throttle with unerring accuracy now so a computer could definitely react quickly enough in that time frame. I think it would definitely be doable but considering they seem reluctant to spend too much more money developing manual gearboxes it's probably not going to happen. Still wouldn't stop me choosing a manual over a PDK though.
Guvernator said:
You can get manual boxes which can auto blip the throttle with unerring accuracy now so a computer could definitely react quickly enough in that time frame. I think it would definitely be doable but considering they seem reluctant to spend too much more money developing manual gearboxes it's probably not going to happen. Still wouldn't stop me choosing a manual over a PDK though.
throttle in most cars is electronic i.e controlled by the ECU so easy to make it blip the throttle to rev matchmanual clutch and gear lever linkages are just that manual, no electricity attached
how much of a nobber do you have to be to select 2nd instead of 4th anyway
Guvernator said:
Olivera said:
You are failing to understand how this works. The engine revs are not too high until the (too low) gear is engaged and the clutch is brought up. Then the speed at the wheels transmitted through the (too low) gearing mechanically over revs the engine.
If you want to prevent this then there is a perfect solution - PDK.
Nope not failing to understand, all it would take is some sort of sensor on the gear linkage to detect the movement of the gear stick, if it detects you are moving the lever incorrectly and slotting into 3rd rather than 5th, it intervenes before the gear is fully slotted home and you disengage the clutch. If you want to prevent this then there is a perfect solution - PDK.
You can get manual boxes which can auto blip the throttle with unerring accuracy now so a computer could definitely react quickly enough in that time frame. I think it would definitely be doable but considering they seem reluctant to spend too much more money developing manual gearboxes it's probably not going to happen. Still wouldn't stop me choosing a manual over a PDK though.
Digga said:
The trouble comes when someone's accidentally downshifting from, say, 5th to 4th and accidentally selects 2nd - there are not enough revs on the dial to match that and the results are always going to be the same.
Fair enough but would the small chance of this happening put you off a manual if you were that way inclined? I can definitely see the argument for PDK but all the auto\semi auto options I've tried have all been missing that final ingredient. Since I'm not going to be chasing record ring records any time soon I'd rather have a manual, get enjoyment from changing gear myself and put up with the slight risk that I might fluff the occasional gear change.Besides fluffed gear changes could happen in any manual car and yet I don't see people getting so worked up about it for other marques, it seems to be a slightly curious obsession which is unique to the Porsche world.
Guvernator said:
Digga said:
The trouble comes when someone's accidentally downshifting from, say, 5th to 4th and accidentally selects 2nd - there are not enough revs on the dial to match that and the results are always going to be the same.
Fair enough but would the small chance of this happening put you off a manual if you were that way inclined? I can definitely see the argument for PDK but all the auto\semi auto options I've tried have all been missing that final ingredient. Since I'm not going to be chasing record ring records any time soon I'd rather have a manual, get enjoyment from changing gear myself and put up with the slight risk that I might fluff the occasional gear change.Besides fluffed gear changes could happen in any manual car and yet I don't see people getting so worked up about it for other marques, it seems to be a slightly curious obsession which is unique to the Porsche world.
Personally, now Porsche have multiple rev-rages to view, I think this is better; you can differential a well-used car, from one that has been abused, but it's not foolproof.
Guvernator said:
I still think if it's a big enough issue, with all the modern techo-trickery built into cars these days it should be possible to program the ECU to avoid this, if you try to engage a gear with revs too high i.e. above 9500rpm it just disengages the drive, a computer could do that in hundredths of a millisecond.
Of course the car could make selecting too low a gear impossible by locking them out above each gears maximum road speed, or the car could slip the clutch to prevent the engine being buzzed but honestly if it's such a big worry just get a pdk. I do wonder if ultimately we'll end up with a pdk box attached to 'manual' gear stick and clutch. Us old school saddo's can drive it in manual gated mode, sequential up down mode for the track heroes or auto for the drive to work. Happy days 
Vee12V said:
"but limited development resources restricted what was possible."
I sincerely hope AP doesn't believe this nonsense himself.
Nonsense? What's nonsense about that statement? The Porsche GT team is relatively small and has been limited in time to develop cars. If they'd wanted to develop a manual box for the last GT3 it would have been a big investment in both people and time. Two box options drives not only mechanical parts, but also completely different calibrations of the powertrain and stability control which creates a huge amount of extra work. To put it into perspective, just the stability control calibration alone is at least a years worth of work on that variant for 2-3 people. If their dynamics team was already working on other programmes including the GT3, then a manual variant simply could not have been developed.I sincerely hope AP doesn't believe this nonsense himself.
Remember that it's only in the last 5 or so years that the GT team has been expanded and the range has been increased. Until the GT4, the GT car cycle was in series and would usually be GT3, GT3 RS, GT2, GT2 RS and back to the start.
fblm said:
Of course the car could make selecting too low a gear impossible by locking them out above each gears maximum road speed, or the car could slip the clutch to prevent the engine being buzzed but honestly if it's such a big worry just get a pdk. I do wonder if ultimately we'll end up with a pdk box attached to 'manual' gear stick and clutch. Us old school saddo's can drive it in manual gated mode, sequential up down mode for the track heroes or auto for the drive to work. Happy days
I think this could actually work, pdk gearbox linked to the gear lever of your choice. Cuts down on parts and development etc but still gives people the choice. I'm not sure how they'd fit a clutch and\or H pattern gear shifter to a pdk though, it would probably all have to be fake\electronic stuff and the actual actuation would be fly-by-wire i.e you move the gearstick but instead of a manual linkage, a computer tells the gearbox to change gear. However with all the furore over electric steering, fake engine noises etc I think if someone did actually come up with an electronic manual gearbox, PH would literally explode.
bloomen said:
What a pitiful state of affairs it is when a manual is some type of desirable novelty.
I don't think it's pitiful, to me it seems completely logical. Manual gearboxes were doomed to a niche market as soon as auto's became better than humans in almost every objective measure. I'd choose a manual personally but I'm happy to admit that my preference for a slower, harder to use and less technically advanced car is based purely on emotion. Manual gearboxes are a big compromise and it doesn't shock or upset me that it's a compromise many choose to avoid.
RacerMike said:
Nonsense? What's nonsense about that statement? The Porsche GT team is relatively small and has been limited in time to develop cars. If they'd wanted to develop a manual box for the last GT3 it would have been a big investment in both people and time. Two box options drives not only mechanical parts, but also completely different calibrations of the powertrain and stability control which creates a huge amount of extra work. To put it into perspective, just the stability control calibration alone is at least a years worth of work on that variant for 2-3 people. If their dynamics team was already working on other programmes including the GT3, then a manual variant simply could not have been developed.
Remember that it's only in the last 5 or so years that the GT team has been expanded and the range has been increased. Until the GT4, the GT car cycle was in series and would usually be GT3, GT3 RS, GT2, GT2 RS and back to the start.
Makes you wonder why they bother when their only making a handful of each Remember that it's only in the last 5 or so years that the GT team has been expanded and the range has been increased. Until the GT4, the GT car cycle was in series and would usually be GT3, GT3 RS, GT2, GT2 RS and back to the start.
Seriously though, I do think you're overplaying the complexity of it all, remember they already have a manual box version in the 'R' as well as multiple variations further down the food chain. Offering a manual box option in a GT3 is hardly uncharted territory for Porsche.
The Surveyor said:
RacerMike said:
Nonsense? What's nonsense about that statement? The Porsche GT team is relatively small and has been limited in time to develop cars. If they'd wanted to develop a manual box for the last GT3 it would have been a big investment in both people and time. Two box options drives not only mechanical parts, but also completely different calibrations of the powertrain and stability control which creates a huge amount of extra work. To put it into perspective, just the stability control calibration alone is at least a years worth of work on that variant for 2-3 people. If their dynamics team was already working on other programmes including the GT3, then a manual variant simply could not have been developed.
Remember that it's only in the last 5 or so years that the GT team has been expanded and the range has been increased. Until the GT4, the GT car cycle was in series and would usually be GT3, GT3 RS, GT2, GT2 RS and back to the start.
Makes you wonder why they bother when their only making a handful of each Remember that it's only in the last 5 or so years that the GT team has been expanded and the range has been increased. Until the GT4, the GT car cycle was in series and would usually be GT3, GT3 RS, GT2, GT2 RS and back to the start.
Seriously though, I do think you're overplaying the complexity of it all, remember they already have a manual box version in the 'R' as well as multiple variations further down the food chain. Offering a manual box option in a GT3 is hardly uncharted territory for Porsche.
donteatpeople said:
bloomen said:
What a pitiful state of affairs it is when a manual is some type of desirable novelty.
I don't think it's pitiful, to me it seems completely logical. Manual gearboxes were doomed to a niche market as soon as auto's became better than humans in almost every objective measure. I'd choose a manual personally but I'm happy to admit that my preference for a slower, harder to use and less technically advanced car is based purely on emotion. Manual gearboxes are a big compromise and it doesn't shock or upset me that it's a compromise many choose to avoid.
Mechanical steering, natural induction, non-cat exhaust notes, light weight, manual gear boxes etc. etc. have been shoved aside in the march for safety and environmental friendliness. It's no wonder cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's are commanding such premiums, despite many being unreliable basket cases. The feel and the sound of the machinery is so much a part of the driving experience that raw speed alone cannot replace it.
I'm not for one minute saying the 991.2 GT3 is a 's
t' car, or even a dull car, but rather that to enjoy it to any large degree of its potential, you probably best be on a race track.
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