Modern Cars- No Character!?
Discussion
V8RX7 said:
You're wrong - they are significantly more expensive to run than a 330 - which has enough power 99% of the time, the only reason I'd buy an M3 is to get the LSD and to lose the throttle delay.
You only get to access the engine's abilities at the top end - at the top end of 3rd you're doing 100 !
It's precisely why I bought my V8 - I get to enjoy it's low end torque all the time.
The one you tried must have been broken, there's ample torque low down. 240Nm from idle isn't exactly gutless. You only get to access the engine's abilities at the top end - at the top end of 3rd you're doing 100 !
It's precisely why I bought my V8 - I get to enjoy it's low end torque all the time.
Yes it does it's best work higher up the rev range, but it's more than happy to potter around and it's not like you to have to rev it out to 8000 to get it singing.
Although i dont disagree with the sentiment (thinking about buying a new car and really, really struggling to find something with a manual that can seat a family)...
But we should remember that we choose to preserve and remember the MOST interesting cars of previous eras, not necessarily the most common or representative.
Is a modern four door saloon less involving than a Mk1 Vectra, a base Sierra, or a wheezy 1.6L Austin Montego?
But we should remember that we choose to preserve and remember the MOST interesting cars of previous eras, not necessarily the most common or representative.
Is a modern four door saloon less involving than a Mk1 Vectra, a base Sierra, or a wheezy 1.6L Austin Montego?
Modern cars just aren't beautiful. The current design trend is for a car to look super aggressive, to scowl in the rear view mirror of those who dare to impede its progress. Aggression isn't beautiful, nor is it cool.
I don't know whether this is because the market wants it, or because it's the only way to make a car look interesting within the current pedestrian crash protection rules.
I don't know whether this is because the market wants it, or because it's the only way to make a car look interesting within the current pedestrian crash protection rules.
PHAB said:
Just buy a late e46 M3, manual or SMG - who cares. Last true car that could be the dd, not cost a fortune to run, feel blisteringly quick when you were giving it some and yet still be exciting sitting still in a traffic jam....it has that tingling magic that is borne from a perfect balance of civility and potency.
Oh...and you wont lose a penny on it.
Tell me Im wrong
I part ex'd my SMG e46 M3 for my Fiesta ST.Oh...and you wont lose a penny on it.
Tell me Im wrong
I genuinely believe my little Fiesta with its little turbo and tail happy, chuckable chassis has more character than the M3.
Ive just come back from the Nurburgring with it and couldn't be happier, it did its best bless it, I had such a fun time.
I loved my M3 and what it was all about, but yeah, Fiesta has character!
Flanners said:
havoc said:
'Character' has nothing to do with the reliability of the car (unless you're a bearded English masochist who can't bond with his car unless he has to fix something 3 times a week and twice on Sundays - British Leyland was invented for people like that...).
'Character' is all to do with the feeling of connection/involvement you get from the car:-
- Sound - does the engine make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck? Not often now in an age of modern turbo'd everything...
- Feedback - not just steering, but seat-of-the-pants. And pedals too. This is something that modern NVH and EPAS have done their best to eliminate, sadly.
- Responsiveness - whilst we're in an age of zero-slack steering/zero-profile sidewalls, over-mapped DBW throttles and over-servo'd brakes, the actual responsiveness of cars - knowing how they'll respond to control inputs - seems to have dissipated as nothing is linear anymore - often the engineers 'tune-in' an exaggerated initial response followed by a long period of disappointment.
- Sense-of-occasion - how does the car make you feel, or is it just white goods? This DOES include the 'will the car try to kill me' quality, but that's not essential!
So in essence the OP's theory is right - most modern cars now have had all the 'character' engineered out of them (often because of legislation - emissions, crash regs etc), with the exception of the over-powered silliness that seems to be coming out of Germany in their uber-saloons right now.
I've avoided mentioning 'Fun' - that oh-so-indefinable quality that's different for different people - as that's different to character, and isn't an absolute.
Bang on!'Character' is all to do with the feeling of connection/involvement you get from the car:-
- Sound - does the engine make the hairs stand up on the back of your neck? Not often now in an age of modern turbo'd everything...
- Feedback - not just steering, but seat-of-the-pants. And pedals too. This is something that modern NVH and EPAS have done their best to eliminate, sadly.
- Responsiveness - whilst we're in an age of zero-slack steering/zero-profile sidewalls, over-mapped DBW throttles and over-servo'd brakes, the actual responsiveness of cars - knowing how they'll respond to control inputs - seems to have dissipated as nothing is linear anymore - often the engineers 'tune-in' an exaggerated initial response followed by a long period of disappointment.
- Sense-of-occasion - how does the car make you feel, or is it just white goods? This DOES include the 'will the car try to kill me' quality, but that's not essential!
So in essence the OP's theory is right - most modern cars now have had all the 'character' engineered out of them (often because of legislation - emissions, crash regs etc), with the exception of the over-powered silliness that seems to be coming out of Germany in their uber-saloons right now.
I've avoided mentioning 'Fun' - that oh-so-indefinable quality that's different for different people - as that's different to character, and isn't an absolute.
And I'd add
Smell - is there a hint of leather or wood, and after/during a brisk drive the aroma of hot brakes, oil, metal and tyres, and the ticking as it all cools down
Accessories - superfluous but charming embellishments such as a smart clock, fancy upholstery and carbon fibre.
Performance enhancements - especially those not strictly necessary but signalling a sporting intent such as motorsport dials, carbon brakes, wings and aerofoils.
Some people on this forum are just way to old lol. It really depends what you describe as having a character. Just because a modern hot hatch would muller yesteryears supercars in terms of acceleration and handling whilst still be able to be driven daily and cruise on the motorway comfortably at 90. Doesn't mean they don't have character, the Fiesta ST has been mentioned a lot, and yes it's a very good car at everything and is great fun to drive, chuck about the b roads. Everything that makes a mk1 poxy mx5 fun to drive is it not, but able to take the kids to school in the morning. Stick a miltek cat back and induction kit on one and it opens it up more on terms of noise, oem they're a little too quiet for me
The fiesta ST is indeed a great car with great character, the Focus RS has more but gets berated hugely. Amazing how many haters it has, that alone gives it extra character.
If you don't think any modern hot hatches have character I would suggest that you have little or no experience of actually driving them and the Fords are up there at the top of the bunch.
If you don't think any modern hot hatches have character I would suggest that you have little or no experience of actually driving them and the Fords are up there at the top of the bunch.
Edited by Ahbefive on Tuesday 23 May 20:36
Got to admit, I'm firmly in the "new cars have no character" camp.
The newest cars we have ever had in the household are currently parked outside, both 2002.
I always seem to buy cars with "not quite the norm" engines, from Subaru turbo and twin turbo, Audi 5cyl quattro's, BMW straight sixes etc etc, a plain 4cyl engine holds no attraction to me.
Most new cars excluding big money stuff has a plain old 4 banger wrapped up in a different dress.
90% of a cars attraction for me is the engine I guess, the way it goes or sounds or feels makes a car for me.
Getting an older car with an interesting or larger capacity engine is my thing, more speed, noise, lack of electronic goodies etc.
If I want WiFi, I'll use it at home, if I want to charge my phone, I'll plug the CIG lighter in, you get my drift.
The newest cars we have ever had in the household are currently parked outside, both 2002.
I always seem to buy cars with "not quite the norm" engines, from Subaru turbo and twin turbo, Audi 5cyl quattro's, BMW straight sixes etc etc, a plain 4cyl engine holds no attraction to me.
Most new cars excluding big money stuff has a plain old 4 banger wrapped up in a different dress.
90% of a cars attraction for me is the engine I guess, the way it goes or sounds or feels makes a car for me.
Getting an older car with an interesting or larger capacity engine is my thing, more speed, noise, lack of electronic goodies etc.
If I want WiFi, I'll use it at home, if I want to charge my phone, I'll plug the CIG lighter in, you get my drift.
HedgeyGedgey said:
Fiesta ST has been mentioned a lot, and yes it's a very good car at everything and is great fun to drive, chuck about the b roads.
Everything that makes a mk1 poxy mx5 fun to drive is it not
The best thing about the MX5 is it's feel and adjustability - it gets that from being RWD.Everything that makes a mk1 poxy mx5 fun to drive is it not
Power not corrupting the steering and adjusting your line with the throttle - lift off oversteer is a very blunt tool.
It's also far more fun because you're sitting lower, have the roof off and can feel what it's doing through the steering wheel and the seat - the Fiesta doesn't compare.
and bear in mind we live in an era when you can buy:
A Dodge with 700hp
a Morgan 3 wheeler that looks like the biplane from Indiana Jones after the wings got knocked off
a Camaro that can out-lap a Porsche GT3
a Mustang with a screaming, flat plane crank V8
a Fiat 500 that thinks its a muscle car
a carbonfibre Alfa romeo sports car that tries to kill you
a RWD alfa sedan with 505bhp. And an SUV version that your wife will like.
McLaren street cars that have close-to-LMP performance
An daily-drivable electric luxury car that out drags supercars
Actually competitive, acceptably reliable, interesting to drive Jaguars
Arguably what has changed is that mainstream cars are now targeted for mainstream drivers, with enthusiast offerings pushed to the extremes.
A Dodge with 700hp
a Morgan 3 wheeler that looks like the biplane from Indiana Jones after the wings got knocked off
a Camaro that can out-lap a Porsche GT3
a Mustang with a screaming, flat plane crank V8
a Fiat 500 that thinks its a muscle car
a carbonfibre Alfa romeo sports car that tries to kill you
a RWD alfa sedan with 505bhp. And an SUV version that your wife will like.
McLaren street cars that have close-to-LMP performance
An daily-drivable electric luxury car that out drags supercars
Actually competitive, acceptably reliable, interesting to drive Jaguars
Arguably what has changed is that mainstream cars are now targeted for mainstream drivers, with enthusiast offerings pushed to the extremes.
V8RX7 said:
HedgeyGedgey said:
Fiesta ST has been mentioned a lot, and yes it's a very good car at everything and is great fun to drive, chuck about the b roads.
Everything that makes a mk1 poxy mx5 fun to drive is it not
The best thing about the MX5 is it's feel and adjustability - it gets that from being RWD.Everything that makes a mk1 poxy mx5 fun to drive is it not
Power not corrupting the steering and adjusting your line with the throttle - lift off oversteer is a very blunt tool.
It's also far more fun because you're sitting lower, have the roof off and can feel what it's doing through the steering wheel and the seat - the Fiesta doesn't compare.
V8RX7 said:
The best thing about the MX5 is it's feel and adjustability - it gets that from being RWD.
Power not corrupting the steering and adjusting your line with the throttle - lift off oversteer is a very blunt tool.
It's also far more fun because you're sitting lower, have the roof off and can feel what it's doing through the steering wheel and the seat - the Fiesta doesn't compare.
So nothing front wheel drive is fun or has character? Hm interesting, often here people get out of mk1 golf gti's and Peugeot 205 gti's and say they're a very dull drive...........Power not corrupting the steering and adjusting your line with the throttle - lift off oversteer is a very blunt tool.
It's also far more fun because you're sitting lower, have the roof off and can feel what it's doing through the steering wheel and the seat - the Fiesta doesn't compare.
HedgeyGedgey said:
So nothing front wheel drive is fun or has character? Hm interesting, often here people get out of mk1 golf gti's and Peugeot 205 gti's and say they're a very dull drive...........
They can be ok. More for a blast IMO. But I find FWD gets tedious as a daily fun car. So I largely agree with V8RX7. Not knocking those cars. But an MX-5 or similar would always be more fun to me. And for largely the reasons V8RX7 stated.
I did enjoy driving a DC2 ITR and a Rover 200 BRM. Both however have LSD's and they do drive quite differently to an open diff FWD car. But their fwd-ness does get somewhat irritating after a while and you really miss rwd.
Speedgirl said:
Flanners said:
havoc said:
Stuff
Bang on!And I'd add
Smell - is there a hint of leather or wood, and after/during a brisk drive the aroma of hot brakes, oil, metal and tyres, and the ticking as it all cools down
Accessories - superfluous but charming embellishments such as a smart clock, fancy upholstery and carbon fibre.
Performance enhancements - especially those not strictly necessary but signalling a sporting intent such as motorsport dials, carbon brakes, wings and aerofoils.
The sound and smell after a good drive always makes me smile...
...and agreed on the 'sporting intent' - as long as it's in-keeping with the car and not an 'all show / no go' styling pack - I guess that's the performance side of the 'luxury' character in your second line...
300bhp/ton said:
HedgeyGedgey said:
So nothing front wheel drive is fun or has character? Hm interesting, often here people get out of mk1 golf gti's and Peugeot 205 gti's and say they're a very dull drive...........
They can be ok. More for a blast IMO. But I find FWD gets tedious as a daily fun car. So I largely agree with V8RX7. Not knocking those cars. But an MX-5 or similar would always be more fun to me. And for largely the reasons V8RX7 stated.
I did enjoy driving a DC2 ITR and a Rover 200 BRM. Both however have LSD's and they do drive quite differently to an open diff FWD car. But their fwd-ness does get somewhat irritating after a while and you really miss rwd.
Not sure a Fiesta ST can really be compared to a 205 GTI in the fun stakes...The Ford is a good car. Given modern design restrictions.
clarki said:
My slk with a great big V8 in it certainly doesn't make the perfect car but it does make you laugh out loud!!
interesting post when put in the context of the long running GT86 thread. That car generates a lot of debate (putting it politely).The SLK55 is far from a perfect car as you acknowledge and clearly isn't cheap, yet most people quite rightly acknowledge the joy and credibility of it. It's a 'worthy' ph car, maybe not for everyone and if not move on.
Nice car btw.
HedgeyGedgey said:
V8RX7 said:
The best thing about the MX5 is it's feel and adjustability - it gets that from being RWD.
Power not corrupting the steering and adjusting your line with the throttle - lift off oversteer is a very blunt tool.
It's also far more fun because you're sitting lower, have the roof off and can feel what it's doing through the steering wheel and the seat - the Fiesta doesn't compare.
So nothing front wheel drive is fun or has character? Hm interesting, often here people get out of mk1 golf gti's and Peugeot 205 gti's and say they're a very dull drive...........Power not corrupting the steering and adjusting your line with the throttle - lift off oversteer is a very blunt tool.
It's also far more fun because you're sitting lower, have the roof off and can feel what it's doing through the steering wheel and the seat - the Fiesta doesn't compare.
The best FWD are better than the worst RWD but they don't compare to the best RWD - this can hardly be news when the best cars made are RWD - the most expensive cars are RWD (a few are 4WD but none are FWD)
Name the top ten racecars, supercars, rally cars, Ferrari, Lotus, Porsche, Lamborghini... how many are FWD ?
I've owned numerous hot hatchbacks including standard and modified 205GTi , Golf GTi, Integra R and never kept one over 6 months - I've owned a MK1 MX5 for over 20yrs (admittedly supercharged)
Obviously it's my opinion - everyone has a one, if we all agreed, there'd be no forums.
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