Modern Cars- No Character!?
Discussion
Cpb1702 said:
Struggling to get excited by new cars and been looking for a while. M4, S5, 718 Cayman, etc. Been trying them all.
Are cars getting like sports stars no personality no character!?
I don't think its a character thing, cars are just safer now with all the modern tech. You can switch it off on some cars though if you want some 'character' back. Or maybe tie a bit of string to the accelerator lever in the engine bay and feed it through the window for those days when the accelerator cable broke in days gone by Are cars getting like sports stars no personality no character!?
- Or don't change your tyres when the thread runs out and wait till it rains and then drive your car on slicks to get some of that old 'holy cow' feeling back?
drpep said:
Interesting. Living in the US now, I have the auspicious pleasure of borrowing these things from rental companies. The Mustang is certainly characterful but the chassis didn't really inspire any confidence whatsoever. It always feels like the rear axle is ready to step out under load, despite it's independent suspension and limited slip differential. A C63 AMG or M3 never feels as wayward, and thats carrying much more power and/or torque. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
More on topic, there is still character in new stuff; it just requires a bit more digging around. I'm currently on the hunt for something around the $30k mark here and I keep going back to 2009/2010 era cars like the 6.2l C63 AMG or M3. If money was no object, I'd probably get a C63 with the 4.0 bi-turbo V8 as a daily. That engine is an absolute peach, and rockets the car down the road with noise and composure. It'll happily smear dirty black lines on country/mountain road corners too.
My favourite vehicle remains the 997.1 GT3 however. They really hit the sweet spot of refinement (or lack thereof), raw noise, motorsport engine and usability (in its class). It was as pleasant chuntering along at 30, as it was screaming up to the 8250 rpm redline. I cannot wait until net worth sensibly permits another one which I will keep for life.
To be fair I didn't drive it in the wet but it's my first drive on the road in a 400bhp+ RWD car and I was expecting intimidating but it really wasn't. It's definitely more GT than sports car (don't expect it to handle like a Porsche) but I was pleasantly surprised. One thing that might make a difference is the Performance Package. I believe that this is standard in the UK and features uprated suspension and brakes but it's an extra cost option in the US and being a rental, it may not have had it (I think the Performance Package comes with black 19 inch wheels in the US). If you can get hold of a GT350 then that ought to be pretty well sorted in the chassis department, as would a Chevrolet Camaro Z/28.More on topic, there is still character in new stuff; it just requires a bit more digging around. I'm currently on the hunt for something around the $30k mark here and I keep going back to 2009/2010 era cars like the 6.2l C63 AMG or M3. If money was no object, I'd probably get a C63 with the 4.0 bi-turbo V8 as a daily. That engine is an absolute peach, and rockets the car down the road with noise and composure. It'll happily smear dirty black lines on country/mountain road corners too.
My favourite vehicle remains the 997.1 GT3 however. They really hit the sweet spot of refinement (or lack thereof), raw noise, motorsport engine and usability (in its class). It was as pleasant chuntering along at 30, as it was screaming up to the 8250 rpm redline. I cannot wait until net worth sensibly permits another one which I will keep for life.
Needless to say, the chassis may not be Porsche good but it certainly has the character that the OP is looking for and it's a blank canvas. There are plenty of aftermarket parts available to get it exactly how you want it and you are no longer limited by the live rear axle. An M4 may be more practical and economical but hand on heart, I would have a Mustang GT over one any day (and the E46/E92 M3 used to be one of my favourite cars).
Maash said:
Personally I have conondrum related to this subject. Wife started working in another town and uses our current car (1-series bimmer). I can manage with motorcycle + loaner from my parents during summer. However I've tried to get interested in some second car (we'll update the 1-series soon to XC60 or X1) that would be fun.
Main criterias are rwd, coupe or hard top roadster, fun to drive 8/10ths, manual and should sound good. Good looks also wouldn't hurt and doesn't have to be fast (as long as it's fun in b-roads and on ice).
- Latest Miata is pretty high on the list, however it doesn't really sound that good.
- Soft-top and awd is littlebit no-no, but Brera based Spider still seems interesting (dat ass), but the V6 is a bit of downer.
- 10 yrs old Boxter (or Cayman) is also little bit interesting (sounds + dynamics), however it's soft top, not that pretty and closest repair is 400km away. Plus most likely quite expensive to upkeep.
- Z4 is quite generic and 3 litre doesn't really sound that good (neighbour has one).
At this rate I either buy KTM 350 and studded tyres and 70's G-wagon or HJ40.
Plenty of options. Vauxhall Monaro, Mazda RX8 R3, Nissan 350Z/370Z, Honda S2000, perhaps a Lotus Elise? An MX5 roadster coupe would still be a fine pick though.Main criterias are rwd, coupe or hard top roadster, fun to drive 8/10ths, manual and should sound good. Good looks also wouldn't hurt and doesn't have to be fast (as long as it's fun in b-roads and on ice).
- Latest Miata is pretty high on the list, however it doesn't really sound that good.
- Soft-top and awd is littlebit no-no, but Brera based Spider still seems interesting (dat ass), but the V6 is a bit of downer.
- 10 yrs old Boxter (or Cayman) is also little bit interesting (sounds + dynamics), however it's soft top, not that pretty and closest repair is 400km away. Plus most likely quite expensive to upkeep.
- Z4 is quite generic and 3 litre doesn't really sound that good (neighbour has one).
At this rate I either buy KTM 350 and studded tyres and 70's G-wagon or HJ40.
havoc said:
SidewaysSi said:
300bhp/ton said:
HedgeyGedgey said:
So nothing front wheel drive is fun or has character? Hm interesting, often here people get out of mk1 golf gti's and Peugeot 205 gti's and say they're a very dull drive...........
They can be ok. More for a blast IMO. But I find FWD gets tedious as a daily fun car. So I largely agree with V8RX7. Not knocking those cars. But an MX-5 or similar would always be more fun to me. And for largely the reasons V8RX7 stated.
I did enjoy driving a DC2 ITR and a Rover 200 BRM. Both however have LSD's and they do drive quite differently to an open diff FWD car. But their fwd-ness does get somewhat irritating after a while and you really miss rwd.
Not sure a Fiesta ST can really be compared to a 205 GTI in the fun stakes...The Ford is a good car. Given modern design restrictions.
But if you find yourself regularly on B-roads, then you have the confidence to press-on more in a diff-equipped fwd car.
(In either case, a narrow car like an MX5 or DC2 is preferable to a wider, modern car)
Horses for courses...
A front LSD makes a huge difference IMO. But all fwd cars I've driven with this, seem somewhat more like a workout. The steering just never stops chatting, as in the wheel moves about a heck of a lot, being pulled this way and that. Which is good, because it's doing what you want, getting the wheels going were they need, suppressing wheel spin (i.e when you crest a ridge and one wheel goes light).
However after a while I tire of the constant 'chatter' from the steering wheel. The fact in most cases it is still easy to push wide on corners under power and while a lot harder than an open diff, wheel spin pulling away and out of junctions is all too easy, especially in the wet.
Jumping into a RWD car and getting so much nicer steering is quite a pleasure IMO.
I know this is maybe a minor thing and very much opinion based. But it is one of the reasons, why I have on the whole avoided fwd cars as dailys. And despite my current one being a daily, although not a sporty one. It is one of the things I notice pretty much every time I drive it.
300bhp/ton said:
As I say, for me I think I love FWD cars for a 'blast', as a treat. As you can, assuming it's a good car, throw them about quite easily. This is mostly B road use for me and country lanes.
A front LSD makes a huge difference IMO. But all fwd cars I've driven with this, seem somewhat more like a workout. The steering just never stops chatting, as in the wheel moves about a heck of a lot, being pulled this way and that. Which is good, because it's doing what you want, getting the wheels going were they need, suppressing wheel spin (i.e when you crest a ridge and one wheel goes light).
However after a while I tire of the constant 'chatter' from the steering wheel. The fact in most cases it is still easy to push wide on corners under power and while a lot harder than an open diff, wheel spin pulling away and out of junctions is all too easy, especially in the wet.
Jumping into a RWD car and getting so much nicer steering is quite a pleasure IMO.
I know this is maybe a minor thing and very much opinion based. But it is one of the reasons, why I have on the whole avoided fwd cars as dailys. And despite my current one being a daily, although not a sporty one. It is one of the things I notice pretty much every time I drive it.
i don't follow this. an Elise older Pork are the very definition of steering chatter, yet fwd are normally very muted (presumably weight and driveshafts).A front LSD makes a huge difference IMO. But all fwd cars I've driven with this, seem somewhat more like a workout. The steering just never stops chatting, as in the wheel moves about a heck of a lot, being pulled this way and that. Which is good, because it's doing what you want, getting the wheels going were they need, suppressing wheel spin (i.e when you crest a ridge and one wheel goes light).
However after a while I tire of the constant 'chatter' from the steering wheel. The fact in most cases it is still easy to push wide on corners under power and while a lot harder than an open diff, wheel spin pulling away and out of junctions is all too easy, especially in the wet.
Jumping into a RWD car and getting so much nicer steering is quite a pleasure IMO.
I know this is maybe a minor thing and very much opinion based. But it is one of the reasons, why I have on the whole avoided fwd cars as dailys. And despite my current one being a daily, although not a sporty one. It is one of the things I notice pretty much every time I drive it.
unless you mean scrabbling under power on loose or bumpy surfaces?
I think these days we confuse grip with handling. Anybody can put wide low profile tyres on a car and get plenty of grip which is fine until it suddenly runs out and you land up in the hedge or ditch. Handling is totally different where you have more delicacy and know what is happening or going to happen in advance - far more fun and often at lower and sometimes legal speeds. My AR boat tail spider for instance 155-15 radials - bicycle tyres by comparison with modern cars but you have to drive it to appreciate it and enjoy it.
red997 said:
if you think that modern sports cars have lost character, I suggest you have a drive in a 991 GT3.
might just change your mind...
I think the 991 gt3 is actually a very good example of how modern sports cars have lost at least some element of character. It is the car that is supposed to be at or near the top of Porsche's range of sports cars marketed as the most focused driver's car available (or not available for plebs if the scrabble over the .2 gt3 is to be believed might just change your mind...
) but yet for most of the time it is essentially one that feels like a 991.1 c2s with a very nice engine (when said engine isn't throwing a fault that requires an engine replacement) - pretty detached and clinical but it's astonishingly easy to drive quickly and has heaps more grip than one could ever use on the public road sensibly. Which to be fair to Porsche is the template that everyone else in the sector has followed to a greater or lesser degree and as far as 'bang for the buck' is concerned the gt3 is a seriously quick car on track for what it costs, as far as road cars are concerned.CABC said:
i don't follow this. an Elise older Pork are the very definition of steering chatter, yet fwd are normally very muted (presumably weight and driveshafts).
unless you mean scrabbling under power on loose or bumpy surfaces?
Maybe I'm not explaining it well. I'm not meaning feedback, as in what the wheels are doing, so much as the constant movement on the steering wheel, when you drive such cars on certain surfaces. I guess it's not really constant movement, but as soon as you pull away in a fwd car with an LSD you can feel it through the wheel. And on bumpy B roads you certainly know it's there.unless you mean scrabbling under power on loose or bumpy surfaces?
All fast fwd cars suffer torque steer, just as one point of measure. But a fwd car with a torsen front diff will pull the steering wheel quite forcefully as the diff works to limit slip. On a RWD car you don't get this, as obviously the rear wheels can't turn left or right, but it's essentially the same thing that can induce a tailout moment under power more easy in a rwd car with an LSD vs the same car without.
If you watch the original Clarkson review of the Mk1 Focus RS, he complains about the steering for this very reason. Although it's that reason which makes it grip and corner so well/fast/capably. Similar complaints where levied at the R53 Cooper S when equipped with the optional LSD.
300bhp/ton said:
Maybe I'm not explaining it well. I'm not meaning feedback, as in what the wheels are doing, so much as the constant movement on the steering wheel, when you drive such cars on certain surfaces. I guess it's not really constant movement, but as soon as you pull away in a fwd car with an LSD you can feel it through the wheel. And on bumpy B roads you certainly know it's there.
All fast fwd cars suffer torque steer, just as one point of measure. But a fwd car with a torsen front diff will pull the steering wheel quite forcefully as the diff works to limit slip. On a RWD car you don't get this, as obviously the rear wheels can't turn left or right, but it's essentially the same thing that can induce a tailout moment under power more easy in a rwd car with an LSD vs the same car without.
If you watch the original Clarkson review of the Mk1 Focus RS, he complains about the steering for this very reason. Although it's that reason which makes it grip and corner so well/fast/capably. Similar complaints where levied at the R53 Cooper S when equipped with the optional LSD.
ah yes, agree with that and that limits the appeal of fwd.All fast fwd cars suffer torque steer, just as one point of measure. But a fwd car with a torsen front diff will pull the steering wheel quite forcefully as the diff works to limit slip. On a RWD car you don't get this, as obviously the rear wheels can't turn left or right, but it's essentially the same thing that can induce a tailout moment under power more easy in a rwd car with an LSD vs the same car without.
If you watch the original Clarkson review of the Mk1 Focus RS, he complains about the steering for this very reason. Although it's that reason which makes it grip and corner so well/fast/capably. Similar complaints where levied at the R53 Cooper S when equipped with the optional LSD.
I agree
I had to make a decision recently to replace the BMW 520d touring I had on lease. Great car, comfortable, well built, quiet, economical and plenty of performance. Ideal cruiser and family car. But I felt like a passenger, no thrills, car was doing all the work and how many of them do you see on the road these days.
I was a cash buyer and I looked at the Golf R estate with all the toys, but just could not do it, very nice car but detached, clinical and absolutely zero character. I would have been bored within 5 miles.
So my money went on a Subaru WRX STi.
It is a comical car to look at with a very mechanical feel at the wheel and difficult to drive slowly. It is over engineered for its daily tasks but it has so much personality I know that I will not grow tired of its little nuances. Yet to find its limit and I don't think I am a good enough driver to be able to ever to do that.
Will be last petrol car so also my last hurrah and the £140 road tax feels like two fingers up at the eco plebs who forced us all down the diesel route.
I had to make a decision recently to replace the BMW 520d touring I had on lease. Great car, comfortable, well built, quiet, economical and plenty of performance. Ideal cruiser and family car. But I felt like a passenger, no thrills, car was doing all the work and how many of them do you see on the road these days.
I was a cash buyer and I looked at the Golf R estate with all the toys, but just could not do it, very nice car but detached, clinical and absolutely zero character. I would have been bored within 5 miles.
So my money went on a Subaru WRX STi.
It is a comical car to look at with a very mechanical feel at the wheel and difficult to drive slowly. It is over engineered for its daily tasks but it has so much personality I know that I will not grow tired of its little nuances. Yet to find its limit and I don't think I am a good enough driver to be able to ever to do that.
Will be last petrol car so also my last hurrah and the £140 road tax feels like two fingers up at the eco plebs who forced us all down the diesel route.
Old school Subaru's are great. MX5's then you've got souless Golf R's.
I found my two MX5's to be woefull on power yet you soon learnt a new skill; hold revs, carry speed. Smoothness.
Cars like the Fiesta ST, Golf and other modern cars help and assist you, electronically they carry your lack of ability and we are worse for it.
I remember driving the MX5 and feeling myself incrementally improve.
I found my two MX5's to be woefull on power yet you soon learnt a new skill; hold revs, carry speed. Smoothness.
Cars like the Fiesta ST, Golf and other modern cars help and assist you, electronically they carry your lack of ability and we are worse for it.
I remember driving the MX5 and feeling myself incrementally improve.
300bhp/ton said:
CABC said:
i don't follow this. an Elise older Pork are the very definition of steering chatter, yet fwd are normally very muted (presumably weight and driveshafts).
unless you mean scrabbling under power on loose or bumpy surfaces?
Maybe I'm not explaining it well. I'm not meaning feedback, as in what the wheels are doing, so much as the constant movement on the steering wheel, when you drive such cars on certain surfaces. I guess it's not really constant movement, but as soon as you pull away in a fwd car with an LSD you can feel it through the wheel. And on bumpy B roads you certainly know it's there.unless you mean scrabbling under power on loose or bumpy surfaces?
All fast fwd cars suffer torque steer, just as one point of measure. But a fwd car with a torsen front diff will pull the steering wheel quite forcefully as the diff works to limit slip. On a RWD car you don't get this, as obviously the rear wheels can't turn left or right, but it's essentially the same thing that can induce a tailout moment under power more easy in a rwd car with an LSD vs the same car without.
If you watch the original Clarkson review of the Mk1 Focus RS, he complains about the steering for this very reason. Although it's that reason which makes it grip and corner so well/fast/capably. Similar complaints where levied at the R53 Cooper S when equipped with the optional LSD.
I'd also venture that most rwd cars are set to understeer at the limit more than the equivalent rwd car, at which point you've got to use the throttle to adjust anyway.
Electric steering just kills most modern cars for me, here's a list of the cars I've driven that its killed in order of best to worst:
m135i
gt86
bmw z4
clio 200
s2000
Why o why the engineers don't insist on hydraulic racks is beyond me, as a reference my 1.4 peugeot 206's hydraulic rack put all of the above cars to shame.
With regards to the usual fwd vs rwd debate, my z4 understeered more and was far less adjustable than my dc2. As a road car to attack b roads in I enjoy fwd just as much if not more because driving dogs like me have no fear to push the limits and I don't drift on the road. As a track car rwd all day long.
m135i
gt86
bmw z4
clio 200
s2000
Why o why the engineers don't insist on hydraulic racks is beyond me, as a reference my 1.4 peugeot 206's hydraulic rack put all of the above cars to shame.
With regards to the usual fwd vs rwd debate, my z4 understeered more and was far less adjustable than my dc2. As a road car to attack b roads in I enjoy fwd just as much if not more because driving dogs like me have no fear to push the limits and I don't drift on the road. As a track car rwd all day long.
havoc said:
But if you find yourself regularly on B-roads, then you have the confidence to press-on more in a diff-equipped fwd car.
Ah and there we have a key point - BECAUSE the FWD car is easier to drive quickly, is precisely why I prefer the RWD car.If my Mum can drive it as quick as I can, then there's clearly no skill involved, hence no driver involvement, hence no fun.
I recently sold my 275bhp Forester because it was so easy to drive quickly, it was utterly boring unless you were well over the limit - so you were constantly risking your licence without even having fun.
It was the perfect car for the Police or a Paramedic and it's all weather, all road ability it's arguably the best family car I've had - I'd argue it was also the dullest and I wouldn't want another.
Edited by V8RX7 on Wednesday 24th May 21:37
havoc said:
I've never really noticed that with the Hondas, but I know what you mean on turbo'd fwd with an ATB diff - I think it's the level of torque going through the diff, so the effect is far more muted in the Type Rs.
I'd also venture that most rwd cars are set to understeer at the limit more than the equivalent rwd car, at which point you've got to use the throttle to adjust anyway.
Yeah the DC2 is/was awesome. Looked at prices recently and my word!!!I'd also venture that most rwd cars are set to understeer at the limit more than the equivalent rwd car, at which point you've got to use the throttle to adjust anyway.
In isolation, I believe every car has a character which is distinct and can be enjoyed. The problem with modern cars is the number of characteristics they share increases (because of aerodynamics, regulations etc.), so less of them are recognized to be outstanding and unique when we compare them. If we want to feel more character in our modern cars, we only have to drive fewer of them.
(having said this, I'm sorry if I repeated what somebody just said, but I didn't have the time to get through all the comments.)
(having said this, I'm sorry if I repeated what somebody just said, but I didn't have the time to get through all the comments.)
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