Modern Cars- No Character!?

[Flanners]

Or conversely they are homogenised to such an extent that there is no real individuality, most modern cars look the 'same' to me or at least the 'sports cars' from the likes of BMW, Audi, Ford etc are so similar looking (less the bodykit and/or wheels or M, RS badge etc) that one from the range looks like all the others. There seems to be less of a willingness for manufacturer's to design a unique model.

[cramorra]

Monkeylegend said:

cramorra said:

A normal 1,4 golf has more power and is faster point to point than a gti serious one so the gti proper needs to be different up the ante

A serious GTi will be much faster than a 1.4 I think you will find.

Thanks- I feel like starting a new thread - not sure if I should name it "modern mobile phones- too much character". Or " modern mobile phones - too much electronic malakri" as the auto text feature makes me look so dyslexic

[Monkeylegend]

cramorra said:

Monkeylegend said:

cramorra said:

A normal 1,4 golf has more power and is faster point to point than a gti serious one so the gti proper needs to be different up the ante

A serious GTi will be much faster than a 1.4 I think you will find.

Thanks- I feel like starting a new thread - not sure if I should name it "modern mobile phones- too much character". Or " modern mobile phones - too much electronic malakri" as the auto text feature makes me look so dyslexic

malarkey

[300bhp/ton]

Huegelmonster said:

In isolation, I believe every car has a character which is distinct and can be enjoyed. The problem with modern cars is the number of characteristics they share increases (because of aerodynamics, regulations etc.), so less of them are recognized to be outstanding and unique when we compare them. If we want to feel more character in our modern cars, we only have to drive fewer of them.


(having said this, I'm sorry if I repeated what somebody just said, but I didn't have the time to get through all the comments.)

I don't agree with this. Now I'm a car enthusiast and tbh try to like all cars and look for 'good' bits rather than bad.

But some cars are just so dull, they do lack character of any sort. A friend has a 1.0 Corsa, not the latest shape, the one before I think. On face value it's a perfectly acceptable car and in fairness it doesn't do anything wrong at all.

But there is no driver enjoyment in any aspect of it. It's only redeeming feature is, it gets you from A to B without having to walk or use public transport.


Another example was a 1.2 Fiat Punto Sporting. Like the Corsa, it was lacking of any driving enjoyment. But unlike the Corsa it actually had some major design issues that did, in my eyes make it a hateful car to drive. I suppose you could call these negative traits 'character', but they aren't IMO.

[300bhp/ton]

Flanners said:

Or conversely they are homogenised to such an extent that there is no real individuality, most modern cars look the 'same' to me or at least the 'sports cars' from the likes of BMW, Audi, Ford etc are so similar looking (less the bodykit and/or wheels or M, RS badge etc) that one from the range looks like all the others. There seems to be less of a willingness for manufacturer's to design a unique model.

What BMW's and Audi's look like a Mustang?

[V8RX7]

300bhp/ton said:

I don't agree with this. Now I'm a car enthusiast and tbh try to like all cars and look for 'good' bits rather than bad.

But some cars are just so dull, they do lack character of any sort.

Agreed - older cars but the most obvious difference I recall:

A late 90's Clio and a 206 are designed to do the same job - the 206 is utterly joyless, the Clio - even the 1.2 was full of character and fun to drive.

[designforlife]

How modern are we talking?

My DC5 integra has bags of character...the engine and handling are among the most entertaining of any car i've owned.

The purists opt for the DC2, but I feel like the DC5 has retained a lot of that character and spirit in a more modern package...and the hydraulic steering feel is brilliant.

I find it to be a far more engaging drive than my mx5 was tbh, and that's always been known as a characterful little car.

I guess DC5s are coming up 15 years or so old now, so perhaps not really "modern"...but certainly compared to the DC2/ek9 etc.

[Maash]

white_goodman said:

Plenty of options. Vauxhall Monaro, Mazda RX8 R3, Nissan 350Z/370Z, Honda S2000, perhaps a Lotus Elise? An MX5 roadster coupe would still be a fine pick though.

S2000 is also on my list, however there's like 4 of them on sale in Finland and prices are rising. Also Monaro would be interesting (altought perhaps large and not very nice looking), however not available with wheel on the left side. Ute-version especially would float my farmboy-roots.

In my opinion Nissan has really dropped the ball on newer Z-series looks and don't really like the sound either. Elise is also problematic as the prices are super high here (40k€+) and it's not been imported officially, so there's also only RSD cars available. Also I'm not very optimistic how good Elise is at -30C .

[Ahbefive]

This is like the N/A vs Turbo or FWD vs RWD threads, its totally subjective. What one person thinks has character to someone else its totally boring and vice versa.

Cars with good reviews get slated by people that have an alternative view and cars which were mever rated are suggeated as being quite something. It could go on amd on and round in circles forever.

Also how much is character worth? My fiends Cerbera had loads of character and since spending 3 years in pieces in his garage really has some extra character but I'd rathetr something with half the character that actually worked when you want it to.

[OleVix]

Get a TVR Tuscan and learn about character. Big boot, big engine, topless when you want it to be. It might be temperamental but you'll never be bored.

[mrnoisy78]

Ahbefive said:

This is like the N/A vs Turbo or FWD vs RWD threads, its totally subjective. What one person thinks has character to someone else its totally boring and vice versa.

Cars with good reviews get slated by people that have an alternative view and cars which were mever rated are suggeated as being quite something. It could go on amd on and round in circles forever.

Also how much is character worth? My fiends Cerbera had loads of character and since spending 3 years in pieces in his garage really has some extra character but I'd rathetr something with half the character that actually worked when you want it to.

Just because a car is old doesn't necessarily make it unreliable (brand dependent to some extent I suppose ).
I think the OP's point (which I agree with) is because that modern cars do a lot of things for you, they're actually quite dull to drive, and the gadgets can actually be more of a hinderance than a help.
Personally I wish manufacturers would stop telling us what "we need" and start making more of the options optional.

A few examples from my recently departed Mk3 Focus RS:
- Applies corrective steering for you (google Pull Drift Compensation). I don't want that in a performance car, ever. I don't care how good the sensors are. That's in most Fords and Vauxhalls today apparently.

- Active City Stop - brakes for you - nearly caused an accident when I was slotting by someone at a junction because it slammed the brakes on when actually there was no danger and the guy behind me nearly rear ended us.
The new CTR constantly beeps at you when you're starting an overtake, my wife's Ateca occasionally beeps at you when you just pass someone on the other side of the road it seems, very strange that last one. For me, I'd prefer to trust my own judgement, but oh no, if you turn it off big red lights come on. Danger danger!

- Rain sensitive wipers and light sensitive headlights - since when did it become such an issue to flick a switch haha.

Why do I think this - well all this additional technology adds more weight, and my life hasn't significantly improved without it, so call me old fashioned but I'd prefer cars went back to being cars a little more instead of trying to be more like iPhones.

[Ahbefive]

mrnoisy78 said:

A few examples from my recently departed Mk3 Focus RS:
- Applies corrective steering for you (google Pull Drift Compensation). I don't want that in a performance car, ever. I don't care how good the sensors are. That's in most Fords and Vauxhalls today apparently.

This is a characteristic of many new cars, its not just on the RS (I have not ever felt it on the RS) but is fitted to many many new cars including the base models to quell understeer. I am lead to believe that it is pretty much disabled with t/c turned off etc. It's just a modern system like abs used to be.

[V8RX7]

Ahbefive said:

This is a characteristic of many new cars, its not just on the RS (I have not ever felt it on the RS) but is fitted to many many new cars including the base models to quell understeer. I am lead to believe that it is pretty much disabled with t/c turned off etc. It's just a modern system like abs used to be.

Yes and it's another one I don't want !

I don't want to have to push buttons to turn off things every time I get in the car - there ought to at least be an option to "default off" with such systems.

[havoc]

300bhp/ton said:

havoc said:

I've never really noticed that with the Hondas, but I know what you mean on turbo'd fwd with an ATB diff - I think it's the level of torque going through the diff, so the effect is far more muted in the Type Rs.

I'd also venture that most rwd cars are set to understeer at the limit more than the equivalent rwd car, at which point you've got to use the throttle to adjust anyway.

Yeah the DC2 is/was awesome. Looked at prices recently and my word!!!

Just don't.

Sold my second one 4 years ago (92k with FHSH, mechanically impeccable but needing the arches sorting) for £3,600. Given I'd still like another, I could cry...

[CABC]

Ahbefive said:

It's just a modern system like abs used to be.

do you mean that in a positive way?

Progress is moving fast to autonomous cars, because they will be safer, more efficient and more effective than humans.
If you enjoy driving for a hobby though, torque vectoring and steering intervention aren't very good. As with ABS, they have safety uses but detract from the purity of the driving experience. The ideal situation is that everyone else has these systems except me. I realise my argument will not stand up to scrutiny.

[designforlife]

havoc said:

300bhp/ton said:

havoc said:

I've never really noticed that with the Hondas, but I know what you mean on turbo'd fwd with an ATB diff - I think it's the level of torque going through the diff, so the effect is far more muted in the Type Rs.

I'd also venture that most rwd cars are set to understeer at the limit more than the equivalent rwd car, at which point you've got to use the throttle to adjust anyway.

Yeah the DC2 is/was awesome. Looked at prices recently and my word!!!

Just don't.

Sold my second one 4 years ago (92k with FHSH, mechanically impeccable but needing the arches sorting) for £3,600. Given I'd still like another, I could cry...

Yeah they're going for not far off DC5 money now...crazy

[s m]

Ahbefive said:

This is like the N/A vs Turbo or FWD vs RWD threads, its totally subjective. What one person thinks has character to someone else its totally boring and vice versa.

Cars with good reviews get slated by people that have an alternative view and cars which were mever rated are suggeated as being quite something. It could go on amd on and round in circles forever.

.

It does depend on how much faith you place in the reviewer(s) as well please......but at least you generally know for most of the magazine reviews

a/ they actually drove the car
b/ they drove a reasonably new standard one
c/ it was often reviewed against similar cars in its class at the time.

I'll generally place more store in mag reviews from seasoned journos than Joe Average on a forum who's driven " a mate's 100k mile example with big wheels and tired suspension "

[Ahbefive]

V8RX7 said:

Yes and it's another one I don't want !

I don't want to have to push buttons to turn off things every time I get in the car - there ought to at least be an option to "default off" with such systems.

I agree. I would much rather when turning a car back on that the modes that I had left it in when I turned the car off remained on, it would be much better and I should imagine that this will be the case with future generations cars as long as its not a "safety & emissions" thing. Omce set up how I lime it, it should stay that way until I decide to change it.

[mrnoisy78]

Ahbefive said:

mrnoisy78 said:

A few examples from my recently departed Mk3 Focus RS:
- Applies corrective steering for you (google Pull Drift Compensation). I don't want that in a performance car, ever. I don't care how good the sensors are. That's in most Fords and Vauxhalls today apparently.

This is a characteristic of many new cars, its not just on the RS (I have not ever felt it on the RS) but is fitted to many many new cars including the base models to quell understeer. I am lead to believe that it is pretty much disabled with t/c turned off etc. It's just a modern system like abs used to be.

Don't get me started on this.
Mainstream stuff like Focuses and Astras have it, but it's not to quell understeer - it's actually to counteract tramlining and cross winds, and the car following undulations in the road. It is not disabled with t/c turned off - see the issues reported across the forums with "veering steering" - my RS had this, PDC was disabled (on Ford's recommendation) which stopped it being so exaggerated, but it was still present.
See here for more: http://www.blueovalconnect.com/graphics/3-13-09/pu...

There have been several court cases in the US by people claiming it's caused accidents, and I know the ST owners report the same problems.

Some people intimated it was torque steer, forgetting it's only a 2.3 engine with not enough torque to generate that level of disturbance at 60-70mph - whatever it is (Ford appear to know about it, but don't have a fix), it's not good.

V8RX7 said:

Yes and it's another one I don't want !

I don't want to have to push buttons to turn off things every time I get in the car - there ought to at least be an option to "default off" with such systems.

Totally agree. Stop Start - Off. Everything in comfort / boring? Off.
Used to drive me mad on my M3 that every time the DCT started in D2 and you couldn't even map it out to default to an alternative.
Focus RS - into race mode, then dampers back to normal.
Health and Safety brigade finally got into the automotive industry too it seems

Edited by mrnoisy78 on Thursday 25th May 14:29

Edited by mrnoisy78 on Thursday 25th May 14:29

[Ahbefive]

Seems odd that a few cars have this issue, it's not something I have ever felt and I also don't see thousands of reports of this (there must be hundreds of thousamds of cars with this feature), just a very few saying it felt a bit odd, some saying cured by changing tyre pressures or getting the alignment done. Anyway....isn't that character?