2.0 TDI, Touran. Bearing visible stuck on campsite..

[Monkeylegend]

InitialDave said:

Fuzzy69r said:

Your missing half of the ball bearings and what looks like the green end cap ( pretty sure the vw boxes have the green end cap ) , wondering if the worn balls have came out the race and forced off the end cap .

I think this guy has the right of it. Found this picture of the end of the gearbox:



So yes, one or more balls being displaced out of the bearing race and punching the cover out would be my diagnosis on the current information available.

I reckon that's the 02Q gearbox, and the bearing you see is the arse end of the input shaft.

People are going to (rightly) wince at this, but I think that bearing is held in with an inner and outer circlip/snapring, and can possibly be removed in situ. If it were my car, I'd drain the oil, and if there's no obvious detritus coming out with it, see if I could swap the bearing and get away with just that and some fresh oil. My view is that if you're looking at a gearbox replacement or rebuild anyway, no harm in trying.

That's all very interesting but what about those sausages

[Chester draws]

InitialDave said:

Fuzzy69r said:

Your missing half of the ball bearings and what looks like the green end cap ( pretty sure the vw boxes have the green end cap ) , wondering if the worn balls have came out the race and forced off the end cap .

I think this guy has the right of it. Found this picture of the end of the gearbox:



So yes, one or more balls being displaced out of the bearing race and punching the cover out would be my diagnosis on the current information available.

I reckon that's the 02Q gearbox, and the bearing you see is the arse end of the input shaft.

People are going to (rightly) wince at this, but I think that bearing is held in with an inner and outer circlip/snapring, and can possibly be removed in situ. If it were my car, I'd drain the oil, and if there's no obvious detritus coming out with it, see if I could swap the bearing and get away with just that and some fresh oil. My view is that if you're looking at a gearbox replacement or rebuild anyway, no harm in trying.

That ties in with the first video STILLJOE posted. There only seems to be a tight fitting plastic bung over the bearing



And it is a 6 speed manual box.
AFAIA no DMF either..

Edited by Chester draws on Saturday 27th May 21:42

[chryslerben]

Monkeylegend said:

InitialDave said:

Fuzzy69r said:

Your missing half of the ball bearings and what looks like the green end cap ( pretty sure the vw boxes have the green end cap ) , wondering if the worn balls have came out the race and forced off the end cap .

I think this guy has the right of it. Found this picture of the end of the gearbox:



So yes, one or more balls being displaced out of the bearing race and punching the cover out would be my diagnosis on the current information available.

I reckon that's the 02Q gearbox, and the bearing you see is the arse end of the input shaft.

People are going to (rightly) wince at this, but I think that bearing is held in with an inner and outer circlip/snapring, and can possibly be removed in situ. If it were my car, I'd drain the oil, and if there's no obvious detritus coming out with it, see if I could swap the bearing and get away with just that and some fresh oil. My view is that if you're looking at a gearbox replacement or rebuild anyway, no harm in trying.

That's all very interesting but what about those sausages

Those sausages though!

Op hats off to you for your SOH, initial Dave's on the ball here it's worth a punt other wise as you've said gearbox specialist is gonna be your new mate.

[STILLJOE]

Chester draws said:

That ties in with the first video STILLJOE posted. There only seems to be a tight fitting plastic bung over the bearing



And it is a 6 speed manual box.
AFAIA no DMF either..

Edited by Chester draws on Saturday 27th May 21:42

and it also looks like the balls aren't packed in tight in the video - looks like they're spaced (which seems really weird) - initially thought they have spacers between them, but watching the video again you can see the balls move with gaps in between from about 2m 40s in

[Josho]

Ah the Touran/Caddy 6 speed O2M.

Common as. Not mega to be rebuilt. I've done a few now here in Kent.

[TooMany2cvs]

Any bets on the official dealer response being "new gearbox"?

[Chester draws]

TooMany2cvs said:

Any bets on the official dealer response being "new gearbox"?

Quite likely... I did speak to the VW dealer in Poole but they were of no use. Wouldn't even be able to book it in for over a week as well.

[Fuzzy69r]

Pretty sure all modern diesels even going back to 2006 will have a dual mass flywheel fitted to help smooth out the firing pulses from the Diesel engine, when I finished in the motor trade ten years ago they were becoming common .

Pretty common to have a gap between the balls on the bearings , but what's difficult to see in the picture is that the balls run on the inner and outer race but can't easily fall out . I am thinking that a few of the balls have been worn / broken up and got to the point where it's allowed forward and aft movement of the main input shaft allowing the balls to come out the races and force off the end cap .

The graunching noises your were talking about may have been this happening ( main inputshaft movement forward dropping a few balls and the input shaft to main layshaft mesh opening up partially) , pretty sure vw would say new box please sir .

A lot of garages don't carry all the special tooling required for rebuilding a box properly , I know the main Nissan dealer I worked at only had a very very small selection compared to the massive room of gearbox only tooling they had at the Nissan training facility .

[Chester draws]

Josho said:

Ah the Touran/Caddy 6 speed O2M.

Common as. Not mega to be rebuilt. I've done a few now here in Kent.

Any inkling as to whether that end bearing can be replaced just by removing the wheel and inner wing plastic liner piece?

Shame you're not in Dorset!

Edited by Chester draws on Sunday 28th May 17:19

[Josho]

It can yeah. It is a fiddle but it can be done.

Fingers crossed replace it and you'll be on your way fine.

Was there any whining beforehand?

[Chester draws]

Josho said:

.......

.......

Was there any whining beforehand?

Only from the kids on the back seat of the car.

The only slight clue was a clattery noise reflected back from buildings as we accelerated in 1st and 2nd. Most of the way had the windows up and the air con on as it was warm so didn't hear much external noise.

And a sort of scratchy spinny sound at idle.

Not intending to start or drive it anywhere btw.

Edited by Chester draws on Sunday 28th May 17:26

[paintman]

IME taper roller or ball bearing have the rollers or balls spaced and separated by a cage of metal or plastic & the rollers/balls cannot come into contact with each other.

I don't know how many balls there should be in your bearing but if you can find a listing for the bearing with a pic you'll see what I mean - unless yours are of the shielded/sealed variety in which case you won't be able to see the inner workings. Seen a lot of those on wheels but not - yet! - in a gearbox or engine.

I had the misfortune some years ago to have the input shaft bearing on a Ford Granada Mk2 2.8 come apart allowing the input shaft to flop about instead of running true. Due to the now excessive clearance between inner & outer races some balls had escaped & I found them together with what was left of the cage in the bottom of the gearbox. Whilst the car was drivable in 4th - direct connection between engine & output shaft - the flopping about had severely damaged the laygear & a recon box was the cheapest option, the cost of the separate parts to rebuild mine being more. Go figure.

Without stripping the box it's impossible to know what damage may have occurred to the gears but Good Luck.

Edited by paintman on Sunday 28th May 18:13

[Fuzzy69r]

By the looks of it and purely a guess 5 balls missing , defo not taper rollers just conventional heavy duty bearings that will have their pre load adjusted more than likely by a shimming washer under that c-clip on the end of the input shaft .
Fingers crossed you get away with a simple bearing change and new end cap , but I wouldn't have half that luck

[Chester draws]

paintman said:

IME taper roller or ball bearing have the rollers or balls spaced and separated by a cage of metal or plastic & the rollers/balls cannot come into contact with each other.

I don't know how many balls there should be in your bearing but if you can find a listing for the bearing with a pic you'll see what I mean - unless yours are of the shielded/sealed variety in which case you won't be able to see the inner workings. Seen a lot of those on wheels but not - yet! - in a gearbox or engine.

............ but Good Luck.

Fuzzy69r said:

By the looks of it and purely a guess 5 balls missing , defo not taper rollers just conventional heavy duty bearings that will have their pre load adjusted more than likely by a shimming washer under that c-clip on the end of the input shaft .
Fingers crossed you get away with a simple bearing change and new end cap , but I wouldn't have half that luck

I initially also thought 5 (out of 12) missing, but I'm not so sure. The remaining 7 I can push round with my finger round the race.

And this image seems to show 7.



From http://forums.vwvortex.com/#/topics/6032449?page=3
Post #21

Fingers starting to hurt now after being crossed for so long.

[paintman]

Much as I expected.

Your link appears to require membership of that forum to view the thread.

Be interesting to see what the rest of the gearbox is like.

Edited by paintman on Sunday 28th May 20:21

[Fuzzy69r]

Yeah different bearing by the looks of it , either or that ones failed too. Small problem is going to be getting the old bearing out the box as it will be a press fit into the gearboxes half casing , if it just flops out then I would worry .

I don't know vw boxes at all but a gearbox is just a gearbox at the end of the day , with the missing balls working to your advantage you may be able to jerry rig a puller to draw the fubared bearing out the half casing in place .

Whilst your at it quickly pull out the gearbox drain plug ( not sure if this is magnetic on vw,s ) as you will still have a small amount of oil inside the box, if it starts raining chunks of metal and swarf into the drain tray I would say a full strip down is in order

Sorry mate , might want to cross everything you can

[paintman]

I don't think think any balls are missing & that the cage that should keep them evenly spaced has grenaded. Some of the balls in your pic look a bit battered. Where all the bits have gone & what caused the failure in the first place is the worry - although assuming oil level etc are OK it might just be that due to wear & tear of 110k the bearing had reached the end of its life.

BUT you need to check what should be in that bearing as normal, either by VW spec or if visible the bearing number which you may find marked on the edge of the races & you should then be able to find the bearing online.
If the number is on the inner faces then you won't be able to do that until the bearing is removed.

I DO think that if it is just 7 there are too few balls to begin with - crap design - & that hasn't helped.

Edited by paintman on Sunday 28th May 21:01

[saaby93]

Does this help

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gear/a1...

Is there anything in that end plate that keeps them in place

[Fuzzy69r]

paintman said:

I don't think think any balls are missing & that the cage that should keep them evenly spaced has grenaded. Some of the balls in your pic look a bit battered. Where all the bits have gone & what caused the failure in the first place is the worry - although assuming oil level etc are OK it might just be that due to wear & tear of 110k the bearing had reached the end of its life.

BUT you need to check what should be in that bearing as normal, either by VW spec or if visible the bearing number which you may find marked on the edge of the races & you should then be able to find the bearing online.
If the number is on the inner faces then you won't be able to do that until the bearing is removed.

I DO think that if it is just 7 there are too few balls to begin with - crap design - & that hasn't helped.

Edited by paintman on Sunday 28th May 21:01

Good spot paintman can't believe I never looked close enough in the pics ( hot day off with gin and fever tree has me off point ) , the cage appears to be long gone and maybe it popped off the end cap so to speak ( I would have expected the cage to puncture through the end cap ) .

Silly question but could the op follow the oil trail back to see if there is any signs of the missing end cap , long shot I know but may help

[Chester draws]

Cheers guys.

@fuzzy, I shan't be pulling any bearings or drain plugs myself but that does seem like a reasonable step for first investigations.

@paintman, some of those balls are definitely quite faceted, I've not been able to pin down exactly what that bearing should look like.

@saaby, interesting but I don't think know if this technology existed 11 years ago.

Looking like Tuesday morning before anything much will happen, and we'll have to leave the car and the trailer tent down here. I do have one garage confirmed they will look at it if I get it recovered to them.

ETA

@fuzzy,
following the oil trail?? I've driven the last 10 miles to the site twice since we arrived and I've not seen it on the roadside. Thinking I might be misunderstanding but I'm at the bottom of another bottle of wine myself. The oil is mostly spattered around the inner ring, driveshaft, CV boots, droplink etc.

Edited by Chester draws on Sunday 28th May 22:12