Jaguar Land Rover

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Discussion

Willy Nilly

Original Poster:

12,511 posts

166 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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RobDown said:
This is such a typical Pistonheads threadsmile

OP asks a click-bait question "why is the incredibly successfully, record breaking car-seller Jaguar so poor at selling cars?"

Thats then followed by several comments from the hip with no factual grounding "the record breaking sales are because he reliability is so poor"

Then the factual inaccuracies are highlighted....

....but it makes no difference to PH'ers because someone who's dad once worked for JLR (and who once drove a rover 20 years ago) says they're no good

And so on.

Love it smile
So where are all the new Jags then? Around here we are tripping over new Land and Range Rovers, not so Jags. I drover past the JLR dealership today and the Jags were all on the sideline being LR's and RR's, I don't think there was one Jag on the front row by th main road.

I'm not knocking JLR, just wondering why, in the UK, they appear to be able to squeeze every last drop out of the premium SUV market, yet don't appear to be pushing their car division with the same effort. It's al very well saying "Jaguar sales are up by 70%" But 70% of not much is still not much. How are they doing against the established opposition of BMW, Audi and Mercedes?

To reiterate, I'm not offering an opinion on whether a Jaguar is a better car than its contemporaries, just wondering why when new Land Rovers are everywhere in all their guises we are not tripping over new Jags in a similar manner.

craigjm

17,909 posts

199 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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The market for saloon cars is more limited than 4x4. If Jag want more volume they need coupe and convertible versions of the XE and XF and a car smaller than the XE to compete with the 1/A etc and maybe a smaller roadster to go for the Boxster/Z4 etc. However, one thing that hold up any of that is capacity and JLR are busy building their new plant in Slovakia and getting the Brazilian factory up to speed to increase that. Along with local production in China and India this may bring the capacity for the cars above. None of us here, even those working for JLR unless extremely senior, have no idea for the plan over the next 10 years but if volume for Jaguar isn't in that plan I would be amazed. It just made business sense to concentrate on volume for LR first.

Edited by craigjm on Monday 29th May 18:00

Jazzy Jag

3,412 posts

90 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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Willy Nilly said:
So where are all the new Jags then? .
Ahem


Condi

17,089 posts

170 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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Willy Nilly said:
I'm not knocking JLR, just wondering why, in the UK, they appear to be able to squeeze every last drop out of the premium SUV market, yet don't appear to be pushing their car division with the same effort. It's al very well saying "Jaguar sales are up by 70%" But 70% of not much is still not much. How are they doing against the established opposition of BMW, Audi and Mercedes?
70% more than last year is still 70% more, and they have to start from somewhere! If they can put 35% more next year again thats 130% increase in 2 years... which is nothing to be sniffed at in a competitive environment where BMW, Merc, Audi, Ford etc have very long established models.

craigjm

17,909 posts

199 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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Based on combined retail sales in 2016 Jaguar Land Rover is about 20% of the size of the BMW group in terms of volume which is why you see so many more BMW and associated cars around. In 2010 that figure was 12%. Rome was not built in a day.

Jazzy Jag

3,412 posts

90 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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craigjm said:
. Rome was not built in a day.
although that was the builder's original estimate.

biggrin

iSore

4,011 posts

143 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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Jaguar are still climbing a huge mountain because let's face it, their heyday as a manufacturer of proper sports saloons was 50 years ago with the last of the Mark II saloons. Ditto the E Type. Throw in decades of rubbish quality and a few shining stars such as the Series 1-3 XJ, the XJ-S and the X300 XJR that were quickly drowned in a sea of X Tripe 2.0D Transit van powered FWD nonsense and the S Type (S for Susan Boyle).............they started from scratch with the XF. As a manufacturer, the clock was reset to zero only eight or so years ago, and they've managed to get this far already. Impressive stuff and getting better all the time.

Same with Alfa, another marque in the ascendancy with some way to go but some very encouraging recent efforts.

njw1

2,053 posts

110 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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iSore said:
.............they started from scratch with the XF.

The XF chassis was largely based on the S-type with engines also being carried over, the suspension was taken straight from the XK.

AAGR

918 posts

160 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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How many of Jaguar's vocal critics in this thread have ever owned a Jaguar, long term ?

Would be interesting to know ....

To start the ball rolling, I have run four different fast Jaguars (some petrol, one V6 diesel) cars since 2002, with BMWs various in between times .



VGTICE

1,003 posts

86 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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I'd had some Fords in the naughties - Mondeos and such - so that counts as having a Jaguar I reckon?

Jazzy Jag

3,412 posts

90 months

Monday 29th May 2017
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VGTICE said:
I'd had some Fords in the naughties - Mondeos and such - so that counts as having a Jaguar I reckon?
yeah, I had a Fiat Uno once so that counts as having a Ferrari I reckon.

I had a Golf so by association had a Bugatti Veyron, too.



twoblacklines

1,575 posts

160 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
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Willy Nilly said:
It seems that JLR can do no wrong when they design an SUV and people queue up in the streets to pay full list for them.

They definetly did wrong on the latest Discovery. No symettry...fugly car


https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/paris-mo...

white_goodman

4,042 posts

190 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
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I think that JLR have done a fantastic job in the last 10 years actually. Land Rovers are the benchmark SUVs and have an image second to none (apart from perhaps Jeep in the USA). It's a shame that there's no Defender any more to tie them to their roots though. Another utilitarian 4x4 would be nice to have but I doubt that the profit margins are there (I expect that the Defender was quite expensive to make)?

On the contrary, I think Jaguar are definitely on the right path. It was hard to break away from their traditional looks (S-Type/XJ) and although I love the classic XJ shape, I think that the XF and new XJ have moved Jaguar into the 21st century stylistically. I guess that I would have liked the F-Type to be the new E-Type i.e. more sports car than GT but people expect luxury from a Jaguar, it looks stunning, is brimming with character and still the poor man's Aston Martin (in a good way). F-Pace is probably their most significant new car. I think it's the best-looking SUV out there right now and offers a sportier alternative to Land Rover without the overly aggressive/bland looks of the German SUVs. Jaguar's market share compared to BMW/Audi/Mercedes has probably suffered in recent years due to the lack of a 3-Series rival, so I think they just need to bring out estate versions of the XE and XF, coupe and cabriolet versions of the XE and if they have to bring out any new models, possibly a smaller, cheaper sports car or a smaller SUV. The 3/5-Series market is the biggest fish to fry and for me, the XJ already wins hands-down on style compared to the 7-Series/A8/S-Class.

I would be cautious about competing with A-Class/1-Series/A3. All those companies are bigger and their small hatches are dumpy and pretty ugly, although they sell well. A Jaguar should be elegant and beautiful, so if they decide to go down that route, it needs to be Alfa 147 pretty. The XK was never a big seller, so I don't think a larger 4-seater GT coupe is necessarily the way to go any time soon.

Jazzy Jag

3,412 posts

90 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
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twoblacklines said:
They definetly did wrong on the latest Discovery. No symettry...fugly car


https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/paris-mo...
The Discovery number plate has always been offset to the left.
The whole tailgate used to be asymmetric.

alpha channel

1,386 posts

161 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
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Yes but it was asymmetric for a reason, now? not so much it's trying to retain a design cue from the previous incarnations, to keep more than just the name as a link to its ancestors but manages to make it look contrived, out of place and awkward. Out of all the designs the new Disco has to be the least resolved of them all, dumpy and just frankly wrong looking from the rear doors backwards.

As for design, I think that generally JLR are doing rather well. I do think that there should be a notable difference between model styles while carrying a vague similarity a la Alfa's very distinctive shield grill though. Yes the XE seems to sit lower than the XF but it's not exactly easy to identify when you zip past one is it? (there seems to be quite a few XE's knocking around my way though, including one in a lovely dark blue colour).

I think the revolution in Jaguars style language started with the XK (X150) though which was a complete change to anything that they had produced beforehand but retaining certain elements of prior design cues such as the rounded grill which was/is very reminiscent of the E-Type snout. The XK however is only a four seater GT coupe in theory, you can get four people in there but the rear passengers would have to be quite literally legless... or three feet tall... realistically three... the person in the back would have to sit side saddle though.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
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AAGR said:
How many of Jaguar's vocal critics in this thread have ever owned a Jaguar, long term ?

Would be interesting to know ....

To start the ball rolling, I have run four different fast Jaguars (some petrol, one V6 diesel) cars since 2002, with BMWs various in between times .
Frankly you could substitute the word Jaguar for whatever target the huge range of anonymous non garage revealing PH experts have in their sights at any given time. It always amazes me just how insightful such people can be with zero first hand experience of the product under discussion !

As for the many references to styling on every single thread where a JLR, usually LR, product is mentioned then styling is a subjective matter, sales figures however are somewhat more objective.

Krikkit

26,500 posts

180 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
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alpha channel said:
Yes but it was asymmetric for a reason, now? not so much it's trying to retain a design cue from the previous incarnations, to keep more than just the name as a link to its ancestors but manages to make it look contrived, out of place and awkward.
Sorry, but the Disco3+4 didn't need it to be asymmetric either... No spare wheel carrier here, no less of a sin than the new one.

4+3:


1+2:

surveyor

17,768 posts

183 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
quotequote all
Krikkit said:
alpha channel said:
Yes but it was asymmetric for a reason, now? not so much it's trying to retain a design cue from the previous incarnations, to keep more than just the name as a link to its ancestors but manages to make it look contrived, out of place and awkward.
Sorry, but the Disco3+4 didn't need it to be asymmetric either... No spare wheel carrier here, no less of a sin than the new one.

4+3:


1+2:
Yes it did. Room for number-plate on left. Shorter overhang on right to give you a chance of reaching something in the boot without climbing in. No overhang problems as they have done away with most of the useful drop down ledge.

VGTICE

1,003 posts

86 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
quotequote all
Jazzy Jag said:
VGTICE said:
I'd had some Fords in the naughties - Mondeos and such - so that counts as having a Jaguar I reckon?
yeah, I had a Fiat Uno once so that counts as having a Ferrari I reckon.

I had a Golf so by association had a Bugatti Veyron, too.
How many Ferrari or Bugatti's were based on Fiat Uno's or Golf's Einstein.

craigjm

17,909 posts

199 months

Tuesday 30th May 2017
quotequote all
VGTICE said:
Jazzy Jag said:
VGTICE said:
I'd had some Fords in the naughties - Mondeos and such - so that counts as having a Jaguar I reckon?
yeah, I had a Fiat Uno once so that counts as having a Ferrari I reckon.

I had a Golf so by association had a Bugatti Veyron, too.
How many Ferrari or Bugatti's were based on Fiat Uno's or Golf's Einstein.
And exactly how many Jaguars were based on a direct Ford equivalent not counting parts bin sharing because if we do that then the above quote actually stands. I count one, the X-type.