Why does everything have to be 'sporty'?
Discussion
Why are we obsessed with handling and 'sportiness' in the UK?
Firstly, I love a fun, fast car as much as any PHer but I've been wondering for a while why we as a nation seem to greatly dislike the idea of a soft and comfortable car. This became apparent when looking for a soft-riding comfy small car for my fianceé.
We ended up ruling out so many cars due to their seat design and lack of support and comfort for her back. I ended up taking her to Lexus and Volvo hoping that these would at least show fewer sporting intentions and despite her choosing to buy a V40 due to it's fantastic seats and damn good looks, it is still unbelievably crashy on British roads. Why are we obsessed with hard-riding cars and sporty handling? Surely not everything has to be a 'sports car'?
I reckoned I've narrowed it down to a few reasons:
1) We have a racing heritage ingrained down the generations with motor racing and we all want to be racing drivers
2) Manufacturers like Rover made cheap 'luxury' cars so unfashionable that the market will never recover
3) We hate any sort of space between the wheel and wheelarch that's visible
4) Reviews down the years have focussed so much on handling and driving feel that we forgot to care about anything else
All this new 'DS' and 'Vignale' branding is nothing more than glitz either...they're all firm riding with hard seats. None of these faux-by-fauxs seem to offer any kind of luxury either!
Am I just too old for my age? I'm sure in other countries people prefer comfort over sportiness. Maybe it's just one of those British quirks?
Firstly, I love a fun, fast car as much as any PHer but I've been wondering for a while why we as a nation seem to greatly dislike the idea of a soft and comfortable car. This became apparent when looking for a soft-riding comfy small car for my fianceé.
We ended up ruling out so many cars due to their seat design and lack of support and comfort for her back. I ended up taking her to Lexus and Volvo hoping that these would at least show fewer sporting intentions and despite her choosing to buy a V40 due to it's fantastic seats and damn good looks, it is still unbelievably crashy on British roads. Why are we obsessed with hard-riding cars and sporty handling? Surely not everything has to be a 'sports car'?
I reckoned I've narrowed it down to a few reasons:
1) We have a racing heritage ingrained down the generations with motor racing and we all want to be racing drivers
2) Manufacturers like Rover made cheap 'luxury' cars so unfashionable that the market will never recover
3) We hate any sort of space between the wheel and wheelarch that's visible
4) Reviews down the years have focussed so much on handling and driving feel that we forgot to care about anything else
All this new 'DS' and 'Vignale' branding is nothing more than glitz either...they're all firm riding with hard seats. None of these faux-by-fauxs seem to offer any kind of luxury either!
Am I just too old for my age? I'm sure in other countries people prefer comfort over sportiness. Maybe it's just one of those British quirks?
I think it's mainly due to marketing and image.
Generally, the most expensive model in a range is/ was the GTI, RS, AMG etc with the big engine. People aspired to this, and marketing realised they could begin to charge more if a car looked like the fast version. Thing is, most people don't care how a car drives, but just want something that looks like the well to do model, hence the proliferation of S-Line, M tech and other associated poser trim levels.
One of the prerequisites of sporty looks is no lower suspension and big wheels, et voila. comfort goes out the window.
Generally, the most expensive model in a range is/ was the GTI, RS, AMG etc with the big engine. People aspired to this, and marketing realised they could begin to charge more if a car looked like the fast version. Thing is, most people don't care how a car drives, but just want something that looks like the well to do model, hence the proliferation of S-Line, M tech and other associated poser trim levels.
One of the prerequisites of sporty looks is no lower suspension and big wheels, et voila. comfort goes out the window.
I mostly blame the motoring press, they have become lazy and unprofessional.. They write about what interests them, not necessarily what people who actually buy cars want to know.
Other countries do it much better, Italy, for example. Their magazine 'Quattroruote' still has unbelievably detailed road tests that put the guff we get in Autocar, Car et. al to shame.
Other countries do it much better, Italy, for example. Their magazine 'Quattroruote' still has unbelievably detailed road tests that put the guff we get in Autocar, Car et. al to shame.
I have noticed increasingly nowadays that many reviewers (mainly the car reviews i watch on YT) now do mention ride comfort. in almost all cases of an audi they will say don't buy the larger wheels or don't buy the S-line as it ruins the smooth ride and makes it harsh. they do sometimes mention it with other cars but can't think of any off the top of my head.
Isn't fords 'zetec' trim meant to have sportier suspension over the standard model? (like style, studio titanium etc). interesting considering now with the new fiesta that's out the zetec is the base/starting trim level.
Isn't fords 'zetec' trim meant to have sportier suspension over the standard model? (like style, studio titanium etc). interesting considering now with the new fiesta that's out the zetec is the base/starting trim level.
Codswallop said:
I think it's mainly due to marketing and image.
Generally, the most expensive model in a range is/ was the GTI, RS, AMG etc with the big engine. People aspired to this, and marketing realised they could begin to charge more if a car looked like the fast version. Thing is, most people don't care how a car drives, but just want something that looks like the well to do model, hence the proliferation of S-Line, M tech and other associated poser trim levels.
One of the prerequisites of sporty looks is no lower suspension and big wheels, et voila. comfort goes out the window.
Yep. All about marketing. Generally, people perceive sports cars to be the ultimate in any range. So when you have a wallowy family 4x4 and give it luxuries like leather seats and whatnot, and stick "Sport" on the back door, it's something to aspire to.Generally, the most expensive model in a range is/ was the GTI, RS, AMG etc with the big engine. People aspired to this, and marketing realised they could begin to charge more if a car looked like the fast version. Thing is, most people don't care how a car drives, but just want something that looks like the well to do model, hence the proliferation of S-Line, M tech and other associated poser trim levels.
One of the prerequisites of sporty looks is no lower suspension and big wheels, et voila. comfort goes out the window.
There is a minor safety issue, though it could be argued both ways.
In dicey moment where I have to swerve and/or brake suddenly, I know that I'd rather be in the sports/sportier car.
Sportier ride isn't aiming at being hard and harsh, it's aiming at giving more control, responsive handling and feedback on how the car is coping and the grip available. This does make the car safer in my opinion. It's not hiding the details of the driving from you.
A lot of modern cars are in my opinion, having driven about 6 different 2014+ models, are getting dangerously disconnected from the road. Most of that is aimed at the controls more than the seated comfort, but still. It makes these cars very, very difficult to remain in control when they lose grip and much harder to judge when that might be about to occur. They are not telling the driver when they are asking too much. As someone commented recently on this subject it is probably a key reason why so many people have such a hard time in snow and icy conditions these days.
Of course modern electronic driver aids will step in to help once the car has been wrestled out of sensible in-grip driving by the driver stamping on the brake pedal and swerving. Still prevention is better than cure and EDAs are not in fallible.
Now the opposing argument says that in normal sensible daily driving you should be no where near the limit anyway. There is an implication that it would be purely driver error if a car goes through it's limit and loses control regardless of the numb imprecise controls. This falls down when you consider patches of oil, snow, ice and standing water as "not normal sensible driving" or if you consider emergency manoeuvring to avoid an accident.
In short a large, soft, comfortable car may not be as nimble at avoiding an accident and remaining in control as taught, posed and balanced one.
One side note... Tacking a 2 box boat of a hatch back or large saloon with as much natural body roll as a small ship and tightening the suspension to give a good sporty ride makes the suspension far too stiff and might actually make the grip worse. Common in sportier hatch backs.
In dicey moment where I have to swerve and/or brake suddenly, I know that I'd rather be in the sports/sportier car.
Sportier ride isn't aiming at being hard and harsh, it's aiming at giving more control, responsive handling and feedback on how the car is coping and the grip available. This does make the car safer in my opinion. It's not hiding the details of the driving from you.
A lot of modern cars are in my opinion, having driven about 6 different 2014+ models, are getting dangerously disconnected from the road. Most of that is aimed at the controls more than the seated comfort, but still. It makes these cars very, very difficult to remain in control when they lose grip and much harder to judge when that might be about to occur. They are not telling the driver when they are asking too much. As someone commented recently on this subject it is probably a key reason why so many people have such a hard time in snow and icy conditions these days.
Of course modern electronic driver aids will step in to help once the car has been wrestled out of sensible in-grip driving by the driver stamping on the brake pedal and swerving. Still prevention is better than cure and EDAs are not in fallible.
Now the opposing argument says that in normal sensible daily driving you should be no where near the limit anyway. There is an implication that it would be purely driver error if a car goes through it's limit and loses control regardless of the numb imprecise controls. This falls down when you consider patches of oil, snow, ice and standing water as "not normal sensible driving" or if you consider emergency manoeuvring to avoid an accident.
In short a large, soft, comfortable car may not be as nimble at avoiding an accident and remaining in control as taught, posed and balanced one.
One side note... Tacking a 2 box boat of a hatch back or large saloon with as much natural body roll as a small ship and tightening the suspension to give a good sporty ride makes the suspension far too stiff and might actually make the grip worse. Common in sportier hatch backs.
Edited by venquessa on Sunday 28th May 12:30
I think reviews and reviewers are part of the problem. Back in the 70s and 80s, there were still cars around that had serious flaws and magazine reviews and long term tests were able to highlight some of these.
By those standards, by the 90s, nobody was really making bad cars any more, so which one was best (the point of the review) came down to the detail and Peugeot set the standard by doing ride and handling better than anybody else at the time.
So the manufacturers have been chasing this ever since and fashion has also dictated that big wheels look better, so handling has become everything and ride is the bit most people will compromise on.
I reckon most people who want a decent ride these days end up looking at SUV style vehicles, but even the posh ones of those get big wheels that compromise the ride. I did notice that the Tekna version of the Qashqai is available with 17" wheels (rather than the standard 19") as a no-cost option.
By those standards, by the 90s, nobody was really making bad cars any more, so which one was best (the point of the review) came down to the detail and Peugeot set the standard by doing ride and handling better than anybody else at the time.
So the manufacturers have been chasing this ever since and fashion has also dictated that big wheels look better, so handling has become everything and ride is the bit most people will compromise on.
I reckon most people who want a decent ride these days end up looking at SUV style vehicles, but even the posh ones of those get big wheels that compromise the ride. I did notice that the Tekna version of the Qashqai is available with 17" wheels (rather than the standard 19") as a no-cost option.
"Sporty" for most cars is simply the manufacturer saving money on NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) engineering costs. Branding an average car as "sporty" means they can get away with using cheaper springs, poorer quality insulation and sound proofing, cheaper steering/suspension setups. Fit a loudish and vulgar looking exhaust and job jobbed. Then they market it as "sporty" and pocket an extra few thousand from the customer.
Calling a Golf or Fiesta a sports car is just marketing garbage designed to attract chavs to the Fiesta and make the accountants who buy the Golfs feel better about buying the most boring car on the market. "Sporty" SUV's are the most ridiculous of these, an £60,000 large car that cant handle as well as a mildly warm hatch that costs 1/3 as much isn't sporty.
Sports cars have an emphasis handling, this means a lot of money is spent on getting handling right, this is why sports cars rarely make a lot of money for manufacturers. Sports cars always have to make a lot of sacrifices in the practicality and comfort departments for this.
Calling a Golf or Fiesta a sports car is just marketing garbage designed to attract chavs to the Fiesta and make the accountants who buy the Golfs feel better about buying the most boring car on the market. "Sporty" SUV's are the most ridiculous of these, an £60,000 large car that cant handle as well as a mildly warm hatch that costs 1/3 as much isn't sporty.
Sports cars have an emphasis handling, this means a lot of money is spent on getting handling right, this is why sports cars rarely make a lot of money for manufacturers. Sports cars always have to make a lot of sacrifices in the practicality and comfort departments for this.
My wife had a Hyundai courtesy car recently with nice big fat tyres, my god did it ride nicely compared to almost everything else I've been in lately.
Base spec is where it's at if you want comfort...smaller wheels, thicker tyres etc. As soon as you spec up things start getting 'sporty'.
Marketing departments hate big tyres and arch gaps.
Base spec is where it's at if you want comfort...smaller wheels, thicker tyres etc. As soon as you spec up things start getting 'sporty'.
Marketing departments hate big tyres and arch gaps.
ukaskew said:
My wife had a Hyundai courtesy car recently with nice big fat tyres, my god did it ride nicely compared to almost everything else I've been in lately.
Base spec is where it's at if you want comfort...smaller wheels, thicker tyres etc. As soon as you spec up things start getting 'sporty'.
Marketing departments hate big tyres and arch gaps.
100% agree. I purposely leased the base spec Audi A6 as it had no 'sporty' options on it and rides on fat tyres and small 17" alloys. It does everything I need from a 24k a year commuter car and is a very pleasant place to be. I noted that you could spec the base spec suspension on the S-Line models if you wanted interestingly. I never feel potholes in it, yet the other half's V40 crashes over every single thing! Admittedly it corners less like a ship but no one cares when 95% of driving takes place on a motorway.Base spec is where it's at if you want comfort...smaller wheels, thicker tyres etc. As soon as you spec up things start getting 'sporty'.
Marketing departments hate big tyres and arch gaps.
NR91 said:
Why are we obsessed with handling and 'sportiness' in the UK?
Am I just too old for my age? I'm sure in other countries people prefer comfort over sportiness. Maybe it's just one of those British quirks?
I'd say it's a European thing, i.e. to drive as fast as you can. I have noticed this around many European countries.Am I just too old for my age? I'm sure in other countries people prefer comfort over sportiness. Maybe it's just one of those British quirks?
In contrast, in the USA and China they drive in a much more laid back manner. I was in China recently, and the polite give-and-take at junctions etc was amazing, and the general "speed of the traffic" on open dual carriageways was about 55mph, even though there was space to do 75mph if they wanted to. Admittedly they have other lessons to learn about safety (e.g. seat belts, crash helmets, mobile phones), which is why their roads are more dangerous than ours, but the speed and attitude to speed add to the safety side of the equation.
In the USA they seem content to drive at 55mph for hours. In Europe we seem to go mad, as fast as we can even for very short journeys, with a consequent time saving of only a few seconds. It seems odd.
I'm still running my winter wheels because they are smaller with big fat sidewalls, it's soooo much more comfortable than the standard rubber bands that came with the car. I was planning to swap them over ages ago but my back is still enjoying the comfort.
I actually reduced the wheel size on my previous car to make it more comfortable. I'm sure it's partly an age thing but my next car with have a bigger emphasis on comfort than sportiness. I'm seriously considering some kind of SUV, and that's not something I ever thought I'd say, but having spent some time in a Nissan Quackykey (stupid name so I made my own) I really enjoyed the comfort it gave.
I actually reduced the wheel size on my previous car to make it more comfortable. I'm sure it's partly an age thing but my next car with have a bigger emphasis on comfort than sportiness. I'm seriously considering some kind of SUV, and that's not something I ever thought I'd say, but having spent some time in a Nissan Quackykey (stupid name so I made my own) I really enjoyed the comfort it gave.
Could it be because most cars are bought, or at least chosen, by men. There are often posts here, on PH, from men wanting advice on which car to pick for their wife or girlfriend but of course, the car has to be 'sporty' for when they drive it, never mind that this might be once in a blue moon.
Leave it to women, whose priorities, I suspect, are likely to be somewhat different, and all those stiffly sprung four-door compacts will disappear simply because they won't get chosen.
Leave it to women, whose priorities, I suspect, are likely to be somewhat different, and all those stiffly sprung four-door compacts will disappear simply because they won't get chosen.
NR91 said:
ukaskew said:
My wife had a Hyundai courtesy car recently with nice big fat tyres, my god did it ride nicely compared to almost everything else I've been in lately.
Base spec is where it's at if you want comfort...smaller wheels, thicker tyres etc. As soon as you spec up things start getting 'sporty'.
Marketing departments hate big tyres and arch gaps.
100% agree. I purposely leased the base spec Audi A6 as it had no 'sporty' options on it and rides on fat tyres and small 17" alloys. It does everything I need from a 24k a year commuter car and is a very pleasant place to be. I noted that you could spec the base spec suspension on the S-Line models if you wanted interestingly. I never feel potholes in it, yet the other half's V40 crashes over every single thing! Admittedly it corners less like a ship but no one cares when 95% of driving takes place on a motorway.Base spec is where it's at if you want comfort...smaller wheels, thicker tyres etc. As soon as you spec up things start getting 'sporty'.
Marketing departments hate big tyres and arch gaps.
Interestingly, when I worked in vehicle dynamics, it was curious to note that often the cars with the base wheel and suspension packages would lap tracks more quickly than those with the rock-hard suspension and large wheels. It was a few years ago now, but it was something that we noticed especially with the Audi SE and S-Line trims.
I put this down to being less upset by mid-corner bumps and more progressive weight transfer.
I put this down to being less upset by mid-corner bumps and more progressive weight transfer.
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