Is it time to ban overtaking?
Discussion
Dr Jekyll said:
V8RX7 said:
Do they ? I think most people think they are better than average - obviously half are correct.
Not necessarily.If 95% are doing their best with varying degrees of competence and 5% are complete nutters, then the average could be between the two groups so 95% would be above average and 5% below.
Average is generally regarded as the mean.
V8RX7 said:
WTF ?
Average is generally regarded as the mean.
In which case it's perfectly plausible for the majority to be above average (or below come to that). Just as most people earn below mean average earnings and have an above average number of arms. You only can't have a majority above average by definition if you use the median as the average.Average is generally regarded as the mean.
The real problem is people in a queue who feel that anyone overtaking them to work their way up the queue is "cheating" or "pushing in" and they will drive to the bumper of the car in front to prevent anyone going past. If cars were safely spaced faster cars could naturally work their way through a train safely over a few miles. If people don't want to overtake that's fine however driving to block other people overtaking is not fine.
THere's a recent thing around here to straddle dual carriageways the moment there's a sign for road works so everyone can start queueing in a single line 2 miles from the actual point the lanes merge. All just because they don't think anyone should be using the next 2 miles of the other lane in free flowing traffic!
People should drive assuming the car in front and behind is a police car, if you'd be happy overtaking a police car doing 40 in a 60 (perfectly legal) then no problem, I wonder how many people would try and block a police car from overtaking them tho.... propbably a lot less!
THere's a recent thing around here to straddle dual carriageways the moment there's a sign for road works so everyone can start queueing in a single line 2 miles from the actual point the lanes merge. All just because they don't think anyone should be using the next 2 miles of the other lane in free flowing traffic!
People should drive assuming the car in front and behind is a police car, if you'd be happy overtaking a police car doing 40 in a 60 (perfectly legal) then no problem, I wonder how many people would try and block a police car from overtaking them tho.... propbably a lot less!
Dr Jekyll said:
V8RX7 said:
WTF ?
Average is generally regarded as the mean.
In which case it's perfectly plausible for the majority to be above average (or below come to that). Just as most people earn below mean average earnings and have an above average number of arms. You only can't have a majority above average by definition if you use the median as the average.Average is generally regarded as the mean.
But I said better than average driver - ie 100 drivers go around a track - 50 are better and 50 are worse than average.
Yet another post that assumes everyone lives in a crowded urban area. The UK countryside is full of 60mph limit roads with long well sighted straights, and such roads are frequently driven on by tractors, lorries and vans doing less than 50mph. Overtaking is perfectly possible on such roads in complete safety.
Has the OP considered Munsnet for their opinions or maybe they are a member of "Brake". is it April fools and I have the date wrong? Have they driven in scotland ever, or in any bit of the country north of the midlands where as others have said there are lots of NSL open roads with stretched of good visibility where overtaking is fine.
If you ever need to do a longish journey where there isn't the luxury of the m/way or multiple lane roads then over say 40-50 mile the difference between doing 40 and 60 becomes significant, not to mention that once past the 40 brigade you will enjoy the driving more, therefore stay more alert and concentrate more making you safer than dosing off, finding anything to distract you rather than looking at the car's bumper in from. To quote an advertising slogan "The car in front is a toyota", where I live normally means a yaris or aygo going very slow!
If you ever need to do a longish journey where there isn't the luxury of the m/way or multiple lane roads then over say 40-50 mile the difference between doing 40 and 60 becomes significant, not to mention that once past the 40 brigade you will enjoy the driving more, therefore stay more alert and concentrate more making you safer than dosing off, finding anything to distract you rather than looking at the car's bumper in from. To quote an advertising slogan "The car in front is a toyota", where I live normally means a yaris or aygo going very slow!
So, OP, your general consensus here is to ban everything that you're not happy with? That can surely only end with the decision to ban all cars from the road because there are some people out there that cannot safely overtake or perform the simplest of maneuvers in a car without causing an accident. "Some" being the key word there.
Trust me, i see what you see every day on my commute to and from work. The main one commonly being people that can't seem use roundabouts properly or even understand the concept of them at all, amongst various other things. I understand the frustration completely but i'm not sure where you're wanting to go with this.
Trust me, i see what you see every day on my commute to and from work. The main one commonly being people that can't seem use roundabouts properly or even understand the concept of them at all, amongst various other things. I understand the frustration completely but i'm not sure where you're wanting to go with this.
The OP needs to get out more, not everybody lives in the SE of England.
I live in rural Perthshire, I do around 30k miles a year and about 90% of that is on A and B roads.
A question for the OP:
On Tuesday, I am off to visit a customer near Mallaig in the west of Scotland, it is a 270 mile round trip almost entirely on A and B roads, are you seriously suggesting that I should sit behind every caravan and 40mph numpty without overtaking anything?
I have driven on these sort of roads for more than 30 years with no accidents and make at least one overtake on most journeys so it clearly is not outrageously dangerous to overtake if you take some care.
I live in rural Perthshire, I do around 30k miles a year and about 90% of that is on A and B roads.
A question for the OP:
On Tuesday, I am off to visit a customer near Mallaig in the west of Scotland, it is a 270 mile round trip almost entirely on A and B roads, are you seriously suggesting that I should sit behind every caravan and 40mph numpty without overtaking anything?
I have driven on these sort of roads for more than 30 years with no accidents and make at least one overtake on most journeys so it clearly is not outrageously dangerous to overtake if you take some care.
I suspect that only a very small percentage of drivers actually overtake in the the way descibed by the OP so I'm not sure it's really a problem. Also, I suspect that overtaking is safer than ever given that the speed limits have not increased but the speeds and dynamic capabilities of cars have.
RobM77 said:
Yet another post that assumes everyone lives in a crowded urban area. The UK countryside is full of 60mph limit roads with long well sighted straights, and such roads are frequently driven on by tractors, lorries and vans doing less than 50mph. Overtaking is perfectly possible on such roads in complete safety.
^^^^This
I've been out in my old pickup this morning on a wee errand and counted the number of overtakes I did for the benefit of this thread. I travelled 53 miles down and back up the A7 from near Hawick (in Scotland) to Longtown(Just over the border into England). I overtook 22 cars, 3 lorries and one tractor, never broke the speed limit and don't think I broke any other laws either. If I hadn't overtaken anyone, I'd still be driving just now.
Trabi601 said:
wst said:
what's a big car - chair won't fit into a V70, roofline is too low - with enough power to make overtaking trivial?)
Sounds like you need my wife's car... JDM Toyota Alphard. It's a large MPV with a Lexus 3.0 V6 and 220-240bhp. You can also get a Nissan version of the same concept - the Elgrand. That comes with the 3.5 V6 from the 350z.WST, you could also look at the Mercedes R500 or AMG R63 - for want of a better comparison it is the Mercedes equivalent of the Picasso, but available with big engines. Citroen-esque handling (barge) and ride quality (wafty) too.
Ban overtaking, no.
Ban those who take an overtake as a personal attack on them, yes.
Also, this..
Ban those who take an overtake as a personal attack on them, yes.
Also, this..
RobM77 said:
Yet another post that assumes everyone lives in a crowded urban area. The UK countryside is full of 60mph limit roads with long well sighted straights, and such roads are frequently driven on by tractors, lorries and vans doing less than 50mph. Overtaking is perfectly possible on such roads in complete safety.
+1000 from me. It's extremely easy to perform a safe overtake and usually is quite fun at the same time.Op is looking at this totally the wrong way round. If it was punishable by force that causing a tail back would lead to points people would slow down or pull over to allow an overtake. Likewise if you had a minimum speed limit on the middle and outside Lane the world would be a better place. A14 is terrible for this as people are too stubborn to pull over into the inside lane yet will never do 80mph in a million years.
Where I live overtaking is quite easy. My 13 mile commute could easily result in 5 overtakes. When driving down south it is a totally different ball game although I do find northern drivers have a better understanding of the roads. Road discipline definitely gets worse the further south you go.
Where I live overtaking is quite easy. My 13 mile commute could easily result in 5 overtakes. When driving down south it is a totally different ball game although I do find northern drivers have a better understanding of the roads. Road discipline definitely gets worse the further south you go.
Edited by BricktopST205 on Tuesday 30th May 14:47
OK, just done a long physics analysis of overtaking a long vehicle in my Skoda Citigo.
I used conservative figures, basing my maneuver on this stretch where I feel that an overtake is safe.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/A30,+Okehampto...
A straight of 485m.
I calculated based on drag equations and power=force*distance, that, if I'm in 2nd gear (so peak power):
2.29 m/s² at 40 mph, which drops to 1.47 m/s² at 55 mph. I used 1000kg as a mass for the Citigo, which is slightly more than the actual mass.
Overtaking a 16.5m long vehicle (max allowed except road trains), and factoring in a 2s "stopping" (2s rule) distance of 36.8m.
Note, I didn't factor in both sides, because in the commission of an overtake 1s each side is quite likely.
Also, this is based on beginning the maneuver starting at the same speed as the vehicle being overtaken, 40 mph. more advanced technique would involve accelerating before the straight and judging the situation as soon as you reach the straight. Furthermore, I used the lowest acceleration figure I obtained (1.47 m/s²), so the acceleration phase takes less time than I calculated. Finally, this calculation then uses cruising at redline in 2nd at 55 mph rather than changing into 3rd and continuing to accelerate.
Acceleration phase takes 4.56s, covering 15.3 m relative to the overtakee. This is 96.8m relative to the road.
To cover the other 38m to finish the maneuver, with a relative speed of 15 mph (6.71m/s) now, takes 5.7s. This covers 140m relative to the road, for a total of 237m in 10.26s.
If an oncoming vehicle traveling at 60 mph came into view as soon as you began the maneuver, they would cover 275m in this time, summing to 512m. Note that, while this slightly more than the quoted 485m, the 485m estimate is conservative, the rest of these calculations have also been conservative, and, even if accurate, this would give you 10s to react and return to the left hand side, which is ample time.
This is in a Skoda Citigo on the shortest straight on which I am prepared to overtake. Needless to say, in a vehicle with more power/mass than 60 bhp Citigo, overtaking becomes safe on shorter straights. Gravity should be considered with caution, of course. An uphill struggle will reduce the relative acceleration that you can achieve unless the overtakee is slowing down. Likewise, a downhill stretch will benefit you. Of course, beware obstructive behaviour of the overtakee - however, that tends to be shorter vehicles.
I used conservative figures, basing my maneuver on this stretch where I feel that an overtake is safe.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/A30,+Okehampto...
A straight of 485m.
I calculated based on drag equations and power=force*distance, that, if I'm in 2nd gear (so peak power):
2.29 m/s² at 40 mph, which drops to 1.47 m/s² at 55 mph. I used 1000kg as a mass for the Citigo, which is slightly more than the actual mass.
Overtaking a 16.5m long vehicle (max allowed except road trains), and factoring in a 2s "stopping" (2s rule) distance of 36.8m.
Note, I didn't factor in both sides, because in the commission of an overtake 1s each side is quite likely.
Also, this is based on beginning the maneuver starting at the same speed as the vehicle being overtaken, 40 mph. more advanced technique would involve accelerating before the straight and judging the situation as soon as you reach the straight. Furthermore, I used the lowest acceleration figure I obtained (1.47 m/s²), so the acceleration phase takes less time than I calculated. Finally, this calculation then uses cruising at redline in 2nd at 55 mph rather than changing into 3rd and continuing to accelerate.
Acceleration phase takes 4.56s, covering 15.3 m relative to the overtakee. This is 96.8m relative to the road.
To cover the other 38m to finish the maneuver, with a relative speed of 15 mph (6.71m/s) now, takes 5.7s. This covers 140m relative to the road, for a total of 237m in 10.26s.
If an oncoming vehicle traveling at 60 mph came into view as soon as you began the maneuver, they would cover 275m in this time, summing to 512m. Note that, while this slightly more than the quoted 485m, the 485m estimate is conservative, the rest of these calculations have also been conservative, and, even if accurate, this would give you 10s to react and return to the left hand side, which is ample time.
This is in a Skoda Citigo on the shortest straight on which I am prepared to overtake. Needless to say, in a vehicle with more power/mass than 60 bhp Citigo, overtaking becomes safe on shorter straights. Gravity should be considered with caution, of course. An uphill struggle will reduce the relative acceleration that you can achieve unless the overtakee is slowing down. Likewise, a downhill stretch will benefit you. Of course, beware obstructive behaviour of the overtakee - however, that tends to be shorter vehicles.
Edited by Solocle on Tuesday 30th May 16:32
FiF said:
Both as bad as each other, folks in a camel train with no intention of overtaking who don't leave space for those who wish to overtake on the one hand, and on the other hand those who overtake without consideration of where they will return to the correct side of the road and thus have to force into a space that, for whatever reason, was never there.
There was a t
t in a silver cmax just outside Lampeter yesterday who twice nearly caused an accident by overtaking on blind bends and then forcing into a space that isn't there thus increasing the chance of an accident on both sides of the road. If there isn't enough space to overtake don't fking do it. How fking hard is that to comprehend? 
princealbert23 said:
There was a tt in a silver cmax just outside Lampeter yesterday who twice nearly caused an accident by overtaking on blind bends and then forcing into a space that isn't there thus increasing the chance of an accident on both sides of the road. If there isn't enough space to overtake don't fking do it. How fking hard is that to comprehend?
It's impossible to comprehend because of course the "safe" drivers are leaving a 2 second gap to the car ahead and are aware of what's going on around them, so upon seeing the overtaker, aid him by creating a larger gap.t in a silver cmax just outside Lampeter yesterday who twice nearly caused an accident by overtaking on blind bends and then forcing into a space that isn't there thus increasing the chance of an accident on both sides of the road. If there isn't enough space to overtake don't fking do it. How fking hard is that to comprehend? Or could it be that the brain dead sheep don't consider anything and object to a "queue jumper" so close the gap to the car ahead, creating the incident.
(No I don't drive a Cmax)
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