E46 M3 CSL and others falling in price....
Discussion
LaurasOtherHalf said:
My mate has bought a Porsche 997.1 GT3RS just recently at what many may consider top of the range prices (though cheaper than what some are asking).
Is it over valued? It's hard to say so when the car is simply so good on track. It doesn't sit well with me that it's probably £35k more than what it would have cost new but when you see what else the money gets you-I can't feel it isn't worth it. Drive one and you might see why they are worth it.
But it has inevitably made the rest of us start looking a other GT3s and to be honest there do seem to be some reasonably priced ones out there, especially as it's prime track day season and prices should be buoyant.
OK, the blu-de-islands 996.1 GT3 I did a pre purchase inspection is now up at over double what I could have got it for in 2010 but if it's overvalued now, it was probably undervalued back then.
If a nice 996 GT3 was around £50k now I think it'd be right, maybe a 997 GT3 at £70k and the RS models all £100k+? The thing is there have been the odd one in that price range over the last few months. OK they maybe aren't the most desirable specs but they are out there.
As for the M3csl, I think I sold mine with 33k on the clock for somewhere just below £25k back then (2009), nice cars but not £50k ones imho.
We drive the GT3RS on the track as much as we can-Oulton, Nürburgring and Spa so far this year. It would just be nice to see some more out there lapping...
I remember selling my 16k mile CSL for about £37k - think it was around 5 years ago. I was the second owner, and had bought it from a collector so it was mint. I even added APs, and came away evens.Is it over valued? It's hard to say so when the car is simply so good on track. It doesn't sit well with me that it's probably £35k more than what it would have cost new but when you see what else the money gets you-I can't feel it isn't worth it. Drive one and you might see why they are worth it.
But it has inevitably made the rest of us start looking a other GT3s and to be honest there do seem to be some reasonably priced ones out there, especially as it's prime track day season and prices should be buoyant.
OK, the blu-de-islands 996.1 GT3 I did a pre purchase inspection is now up at over double what I could have got it for in 2010 but if it's overvalued now, it was probably undervalued back then.
If a nice 996 GT3 was around £50k now I think it'd be right, maybe a 997 GT3 at £70k and the RS models all £100k+? The thing is there have been the odd one in that price range over the last few months. OK they maybe aren't the most desirable specs but they are out there.
As for the M3csl, I think I sold mine with 33k on the clock for somewhere just below £25k back then (2009), nice cars but not £50k ones imho.
We drive the GT3RS on the track as much as we can-Oulton, Nürburgring and Spa so far this year. It would just be nice to see some more out there lapping...
For me its a simple question of can the car be bettered at that price point. For me, £50k nowadays for an average CSL is pricey. But a 997 GT3 is worth what it cost new as, in my opinion, you still can't really beat them. As a result, i don't find £100k outrageous for them. I can pick enough holes on the CSL to say i'd spend the £75k+ for a mint elsewhere.
I think there are two important factors to consider before jumping to comparisons with previous crashes.
1 - We are now in an age of transition to electric vehicles with the current ICE cars being forced induction, lot's of auto gearboxes, 50ish% diesel market and electric power steering. All this is adding to increasingly detached driving experiences.
Even todays drivers cars like the M3/4 offer little thrills compared to their forebears. There will always be a strong market for established hero cars like the e46 M3 CSL, Z3M coupe, Porsche 993 and the upcoming 996.
2 - With the weaker pound and the current ease of worldwide buying then rare cars will still demand a premium.
I don't think a crash is coming as such. Premium examples will still rise imho. It's just the overall market for anything old will fall imho
1 - We are now in an age of transition to electric vehicles with the current ICE cars being forced induction, lot's of auto gearboxes, 50ish% diesel market and electric power steering. All this is adding to increasingly detached driving experiences.
Even todays drivers cars like the M3/4 offer little thrills compared to their forebears. There will always be a strong market for established hero cars like the e46 M3 CSL, Z3M coupe, Porsche 993 and the upcoming 996.
2 - With the weaker pound and the current ease of worldwide buying then rare cars will still demand a premium.
I don't think a crash is coming as such. Premium examples will still rise imho. It's just the overall market for anything old will fall imho
hondansx said:
blade7 said:
hondansx said:
For me its a simple question of can the car be bettered at that price point.
For what purpose though ?I'd be seriously looking at a CS SMG for 16k .....or just a normal M3 with a few choice bits for even less unless absolutely only the CSL would do
hondansx said:
blade7 said:
hondansx said:
For me its a simple question of can the car be bettered at that price point.
For what purpose though ?markevo6 said:
I bought my 91 Nsx about four years ago for £25k and just sold it for the full asking price of £75k .
I was tempted to keep it another year to see if it would make 100k but i'm more than happy with the sale and so was the new owner.
Tax free yummy. I was tempted to keep it another year to see if it would make 100k but i'm more than happy with the sale and so was the new owner.
So did you buy a Lotus Carlton to replace it as the next potential winner?
markevo6 said:
I bought my 91 Nsx about four years ago for £25k and just sold it for the full asking price of £75k .
I was tempted to keep it another year to see if it would make 100k but i'm more than happy with the sale and so was the new owner.
75k for a 91 seems toppy to say the least. Well done.I was tempted to keep it another year to see if it would make 100k but i'm more than happy with the sale and so was the new owner.
I remember when you could get an NSX for like ten grand, was probably an auto but they did plummet at one point, cant get my head round 75 grand for a not that fast (270 bhp, Honda, you spoil us) not that great looking 90s not quite supercar.
Ooh the Handling, Ayrton Senna, jumpers for goalposts....
Ok, Not driven one and I am sure they are great, but trying to bring some balance, so many speak with reverence about stuff they have never driven, based on stuff they have read so I can go the other way, will probably get flamed like when I suggested on Facebook that doing a burnout and then accelerating to 70/80 mph in a thirty limit in a MK2 Escort is probably not a good idea.
Ooh the Handling, Ayrton Senna, jumpers for goalposts....
Ok, Not driven one and I am sure they are great, but trying to bring some balance, so many speak with reverence about stuff they have never driven, based on stuff they have read so I can go the other way, will probably get flamed like when I suggested on Facebook that doing a burnout and then accelerating to 70/80 mph in a thirty limit in a MK2 Escort is probably not a good idea.
J4CKO said:
I remember when you could get an NSX for like ten grand, was probably an auto but they did plummet at one point, cant get my head round 75 grand for a not that fast (270 bhp, Honda, you spoil us) not that great looking 90s not quite supercar.
Ooh the Handling, Ayrton Senna, jumpers for goalposts....
Ok, Not driven one and I am sure they are great, but trying to bring some balance, so many speak with reverence about stuff they have never driven, based on stuff they have read so I can go the other way, will probably get flamed like when I suggested on Facebook that doing a burnout and then accelerating to 70/80 mph in a thirty limit in a MK2 Escort is probably not a good idea.
I remember kicking the tyres on E30 M3s at 4k. There are countless similar examples.Ooh the Handling, Ayrton Senna, jumpers for goalposts....
Ok, Not driven one and I am sure they are great, but trying to bring some balance, so many speak with reverence about stuff they have never driven, based on stuff they have read so I can go the other way, will probably get flamed like when I suggested on Facebook that doing a burnout and then accelerating to 70/80 mph in a thirty limit in a MK2 Escort is probably not a good idea.
Unfortunately for you, or not, the NSX is that good. The fact there are only a few hundred of them is always going to help them along, too. 270 was plenty nearly 30 years ago. And as an overall package they are deeply impressive. One could argue they changed the landscape of the sports/super car classes.
What I don't get is why you'd do 75k on a '91 when they can be bought for half that and 10k more gets you a 2004.
I would imagine if you trended over the next 10 years you would find CSLs continue to rise, but the rate of rise may change and there will be peaks and troughs along the way. They are limited in numbers and next to the E30 M3 probably the most sought after M Car. They also remain usefully quick, even against it's most modern counter parts. You certainly would not feel comfortable pushing one to its limits on a public road. I'm guessing the E30 M car does now feel a little asthmatic. So today, CSL values have probably settled, but I doubt they will slump.
I contrast, I would guess that normal big production number cars that have ridden on the coat tales of there limited edition brethren will be a different story.
I contrast, I would guess that normal big production number cars that have ridden on the coat tales of there limited edition brethren will be a different story.
GregorFuk said:
I would imagine if you trended over the next 10 years you would find CSLs continue to rise, but the rate of rise may change and there will be peaks and troughs along the way. They are limited in numbers and next to the E30 M3 probably the most sought after M Car. They also remain usefully quick, even against it's most modern counter parts. You certainly would not feel comfortable pushing one to its limits on a public road. I'm guessing the E30 M car does now feel a little asthmatic. So today, CSL values have probably settled, but I doubt they will slump.
I contrast, I would guess that normal big production number cars that have ridden on the coat tales of there limited edition brethren will be a different story.
Of the original 422 howmanyleft suggests there were never more than 359 registered at any one time.I contrast, I would guess that normal big production number cars that have ridden on the coat tales of there limited edition brethren will be a different story.
Same website suggests only 158 in the wild today. If only it had a manual 'box.
ferrisbueller said:
Of the original 422 howmanyleft suggests there were never more than 359 registered at any one time.
Same website suggests only 158 in the wild today. If only it had a manual 'box.
You are entitled to your opinion but I have no issues with the box. Full auto mode is crap, you simply must drive it on the paddles, but wound up to full attack mode it is great and suits the car perfectly.Same website suggests only 158 in the wild today. If only it had a manual 'box.
ferrisbueller said:
Of the original 422 howmanyleft suggests there were never more than 359 registered at any one time.
Same website suggests only 158 in the wild today. If only it had a manual 'box.
Would you say the same about the 360CS though? I'm not sure the gearbox had much to do with the initial dismal sales of the CSL (I've always thought it suits the car perfectly), more that a lot of the press gave it a hard time for being too expensive and not different enough from the standard car, incorrectly IMOSame website suggests only 158 in the wild today. If only it had a manual 'box.
However, as great a car as I think they are, my overriding impression lately is that they're being bought mainly for investment purposes. In 2013 a large bunch of us headed to Munich to celebrate the car's 10 anniversary. Of that group I wonder how many of those cars rarely see the light of day now
Leins said:
ferrisbueller said:
Of the original 422 howmanyleft suggests there were never more than 359 registered at any one time.
Same website suggests only 158 in the wild today. If only it had a manual 'box.
Would you say the same about the 360CS though? Same website suggests only 158 in the wild today. If only it had a manual 'box.
That's not to say I would turn down the opportunity to drive or own any of them but they're nowhere near the top of my list.
Leins said:
I'm not sure the gearbox had much to do with the initial dismal sales of the CSL (I've always thought it suits the car perfectly), more that a lot of the press gave it a hard time for being too expensive and not different enough from the standard car, incorrectly IMO
However, as great a car as I think they are, my overriding impression lately is that they're being bought mainly for investment purposes. In 2013 a large bunch of us headed to Munich to celebrate the car's 10 anniversary. Of that group I wonder how many of those cars rarely see the light of day now
Indeed, the "60k for a 3-Series" collective put the mockers on it.However, as great a car as I think they are, my overriding impression lately is that they're being bought mainly for investment purposes. In 2013 a large bunch of us headed to Munich to celebrate the car's 10 anniversary. Of that group I wonder how many of those cars rarely see the light of day now
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