L405 Range Rover Hybrid - Broken Crankshaft - 2015

L405 Range Rover Hybrid - Broken Crankshaft - 2015

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MrBGR

Original Poster:

130 posts

152 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
Hi,

I am looking for some advice before I talk to the dealer again, so the story...

Almost a month ago I had the attached message appear, Incorrect Diesel Exhaust Fluid Quality Detected.jpg, this followed a very recent service where the dealer topped up the fluid.

After the message appeared Land Rover Assist attended, spent 3 hours downloading new software, resetting and updating the software on the car.

12 hours later the crankshaft snapped, now I appreciate that fluid is injected into the exhaust system basically after the engine but I don't believe in coincidences.

I am very, very lucky that the car is still within warranty and Land Rover have supplied a courtesy car, so no complaints there.

My issues is that I requested that I discuss the options with Land Rover before any work was carried out, however the dealer cracked on, obviously once they had permission from Land Rover so they would have spoken.

I am sure replacing an engine is a very profitable task for them, anyway I have repeatedly requested, in writing, to have the questions I raised the day the crankshaft snapped answered and still no reply from either the dealer or Land Rover, in fact I had to take to Twitter yesterday to get some attention.

I guess it could be said they are both doing what they need to do but I have genuine concerns for the future reliability of this car after it is repaired, they no longer make the Hybrid...

I was just wondering if anyone could offer any advice on where I stand!?

This is what I sent the Dealer and Land Rover:

I have concerns about where I am going to be moving forward with that car once a new engine is fitted.

One of these questions being the issue above/attached, Incorrect Diesel Exhaust Fluid Quality Detected.jpg, needed to be investigated and answered before I accept any repair!

I also need to understand fully the current and ongoing warranty as I would expect the engine to come with a 3 year warranty, I appreciate the rest of the warranty would expire, however I would see this as an further issues unless at the very least an extended warranty would be added when the current warranty expires as I may not do the same 22,000 miles in the car, the point the crankshaft broke, before any warranty expires!

My biggest issue is that having a new engine fitted on such a new car will affect the resale value of the car, I need to have confirmed in writing that having a new engine fitted will not have any effect on the future value!

Apart from all the above and most importantly I have total lost faith in the Hybrid model Range Rover, as you can confirm to Landrover Jaguar I have had 5 Range Rovers from you, this one being your Ex-demo, and before I bought new from you I have 3 Range Rovers before that so experience and loyalty with/to the brand is a given, however I feel that I need to discuss with Landrover Jaguar any other options other than the engine in the car replaced and returned to me.

I appreciate that [SALESMAN] is on leave at the moment but as he can confirm before this issue we were already looking at my next new Range Rover from [DEALER].

I would request that you forward this email in full, with the attached and Cc… me in so I can pick up with the correct person at Landrover Jaguar ASAP.



Not sure if anyone has any advice that could help.

Thanks

Steve

shake n bake

2,221 posts

206 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
Having a replacement engine won't devalue the vehicle, it's not uncommon really.
You won't get any additional warranty on the new engine, it'll just roll with the balance of the 3 year warranty.

Also, what are you actually wanting to know about the exhaust fluid fault?
Just because you don't believe in coincidences it doesn't mean they don't happen, for a crankshaft to snap at this mileage would mean it was out of balance/had a defect from day one.
A software upgrade cannot make a crankshaft turn any different to how it was the day before.

Seems like you're getting upset for little reason, the car had a warning light that was investigated and repaired. This was followed by a serious engine failure, it is being repaired to the highest standard possible and by the looks of it you're possibly looking to trade it in for another one anyway?

Blaster72

10,772 posts

196 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
A quick Google search shows the fault message you had is quite common and if often either a faulty sensor or a calibration issue within the monitoring software that needs some testing and resetting.

The engine failure does seem to be just a coincidence. However, you say the car was serviced then shortly after the crankshaft broke? What exactly happened? Did they run it dry, use the wrong oil, who knows.

If I were in your shoes and keeping the car, i'd be pushing for an extended warranty free of charge. If you're selling up, then you don't have to disclose the new engine unless asked. Besides, it really shouldn't affect resale value anyway.

MrBGR

Original Poster:

130 posts

152 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
I can assure you I am not "getting upset for little reason" when you spend over £100k on a car you don't expect this to happen in the first place!

You are totally incorrect, I have already tested my theory and it could effect the ongoing value as the car now has "a story", after all there are plenty of others out there for sale, anyway why should I be in a "could" situation!

As I am sure you are aware crankshafts, like many car parts, are built in batches to enable trace-ability should this type of issue, however I can't find any other examples of this type of failure...

The fault was not investigated, the guyed turned up and told me that he has to re-flash the ECU before he does anything else as there was an update on the server, his exact words after struggling for 3 hours were "everything is now reset, if the same or anything else happens just call us again..."

You are also contradicting yourself "being repaired to the highest standard possible" but you also state "for a crankshaft to snap at this mileage would mean it was out of balance/had a defect from day one"

So they can't make right it in the first place but they can repair it really well!

Anyway, thank you input...

MrBGR

Original Poster:

130 posts

152 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
Blaster72 said:
A quick Google search shows the fault message you had is quite common and if often either a faulty sensor or a calibration issue within the monitoring software that needs some testing and resetting.

The engine failure does seem to be just a coincidence. However, you say the car was serviced then shortly after the crankshaft broke? What exactly happened? Did they run it dry, use the wrong oil, who knows.

If I were in your shoes and keeping the car, i'd be pushing for an extended warranty free of charge. If you're selling up, then you don't have to disclose the new engine unless asked. Besides, it really shouldn't affect resale value anyway.
There is something not quite right but I guess I can't complain as they are fitting a new engine, my background is engineering and whilst a new engine is great it's all the bits that link to the engine that "could" also be an ongoing issue as we all know once an engine is fitted in a car these days they are never meant to come out.

Selling or keeping is not yet decided, I may have no hope but I am going to try to push for Land Rover putting there Extended Warranty on the car to regain my faith, this will also help me sell in the future...

This should be simple enough for them as they already have it on their price list so no special agreements needed...

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
MrBGR said:
Almost a month ago I had the attached message appear, Incorrect Diesel Exhaust Fluid Quality Detected.jpg, this followed a very recent service where the dealer topped up the fluid.

After the message appeared Land Rover Assist attended, spent 3 hours downloading new software, resetting and updating the software on the car.

12 hours later the crankshaft snapped
Riiight.

MrBGR said:
now I appreciate that fluid is injected into the exhaust system basically after the engine but I don't believe in coincidences.
Sometimes, they are just that.

MrBGR said:
I am very, very lucky that the car is still within warranty and Land Rover have supplied a courtesy car, so no complaints there.
There y'go, then. Problem solved.

Except it isn't, is it?

MrBGR said:
My issues is that I requested that I discuss the options with Land Rover before any work was carried out
The car had a problem within the warranty period, the warranty is fixing the car. You will get a working car back. In the meantime, you have a courtesy car to keep you mobile.

What other "options" do you think there may be?

MrBGR said:
I am sure replacing an engine is a very profitable task for them
Under warranty? Not really. They'll get a reduced labour rate for the job, and no margin on parts.

MrBGR said:
...as I may not do the same 22,000 miles in the car, the point the crankshaft broke, before any warranty expires!
2yr modern diesel, 11k/year... I think we're seeing why the AdBlu/DPF problem may have cropped up.

MrBGR said:
this one being your Ex-demo, and before I bought new from you
But you didn't "buy new". You bought it used.

MrGRB said:
however I feel that I need to discuss with Landrover Jaguar
It's always basic courtesy to get their name right, y'know.

MrBGR said:
any other options other than the engine in the car replaced and returned to me.
I s'pose one other option would be the dealer buying it off you at the prevailing trade-in value ignoring the engine failure (because that'll be covered under warranty anyway). But you'll probably moan at the depreciation, and if you financed it, you'll probably still owe money.

swisstoni

16,850 posts

278 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
I'm guessing you have never owned a Porsche?

MrBGR

Original Poster:

130 posts

152 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
swisstoni said:
I'm guessing you have never owned a Porsche?
Oh yes,a 911 and had "that" shaft go...

This is my 8th Range Rover a 4th L405 and to date they have been 100% reliable, I think I have just got lucky...

MrBGR

Original Poster:

130 posts

152 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
I s'pose one other option would be the dealer buying it off you at the prevailing trade-in value ignoring the engine failure (because that'll be covered under warranty anyway). But you'll probably moan at the depreciation, and if you financed it, you'll probably still owe money.
Correction this one was their ex demo, my other 3 L405's were new.

If I were concerned about depreciation I would never buy a car... :-)

swisstoni

16,850 posts

278 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
MrBGR said:
swisstoni said:
I'm guessing you have never owned a Porsche?
Oh yes,a 911 and had "that" shaft go...

This is my 8th Range Rover a 4th L405 and to date they have been 100% reliable, I think I have just got lucky...
That's my point - nobody seems to care about plenty of other expensive stuff having all sorts replaced under warranty.

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
I think it's naive to think it won't affect the value, particularly if you're planning on selling it through the dealer network.

When my parents were buying their L405 they looked at nearly new options, we went into our trusted Land Rover dealer (believe it or not a few do exist) and went through some of the cars they had listed on the database. One popped up that was a chunk cheaper so he brought up the service record; it was like war and peace. He basically said 'yep wouldn't touch it with a barge pole'.

I had a similar experience before I bought the Cayenne, I went to see if there was an equivalent Range Rover option available at similar money.

Only one turned up in the network within a sensible distance and it was a chunk cheaper than a lot of other similar cars. The saleswoman said 'hang on a tic' and again brought up the service record, again war and peace although additionally it had evidently had a minor shunt with a front corner being replaced.

Perhaps a more unscrupulous dealer would sell it to you for book price but I doubt they'll buy it off you or trade it in for it!

Edited by The Wookie on Saturday 24th June 10:53

TooMany2cvs

29,008 posts

125 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
The Wookie said:
I think it's naive to think it won't affect the value, particularly if you're planning on selling it through the dealer network.

When my parents were buying their L405 they looked at nearly new options, we went into our trusted Land Rover dealer (believe it or not a few do exist) and went through some of the cars they had listed on the database. One popped up that was a chunk cheaper so he brought up the service record; it was like war and peace. He basically said 'yep wouldn't touch it with a barge pole'.

I had a similar experience before I bought the Cayenne, I went to see if there was an equivalent Range Rover option available at similar money.

Only one turned up in the network within a sensible distance and it was a chunk cheaper than a lot of other similar cars. The saleswoman said 'hang on a tic' and again brought up the service record, again war and peace although additionally it had evidently had a minor shunt with a front corner being replaced.

Perhaps a more unscrupulous dealer would sell it to you for book price but I doubt they'll buy it off you or trade it in for it!
There's a big difference between a car that's been bent, or a car with a "service record like war and peace" and a car that's had one warranty claim...

The Wookie

13,909 posts

227 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
TooMany2cvs said:
There's a big difference between a car that's been bent, or a car with a "service record like war and peace" and a car that's had one warranty claim...
It's a big old warranty claim though!

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
I wouldn't lose too much sleep as long as it comes back to you fully working with all issues resolved.

I've said on here before, but I had a brand new V8D Landcruiser, you know the most reliable car ever built that laughs at JLR because they just go on forever blah blah..

It broke down with 52 miles on the clock and had to be recovered to the dealers where after a week of head scratching they eventually replaced the gearbox at circa £10k.

I never had any more issues with it and sold it back to the main dealers 3 years later and suffered no financial impact at all because of that warranty claim.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
A crankshaft "snaps" due to the following reasons:


1) Massive out of balance forces due to improperly balanced components, or failure of other components that puts them out of balance (ie DMF failure) Assuming the engine was running normally/smoothly before the failure we can rule this one out

2) Massive torsional vibration, due to several possible factors:
a) Large misfire due to improper combustion on one or more cylinders (injector faults etc) - again, easily noticeable
b) Failure of DMF or TV damper - generally, any failure that lead to a short term crank failure would have to be significant and should be noticeable as rough running to the operator
c) Improper engine calibration leading to rough running and eventual fatigue failure - obvious to operator as engine would sound and run very rough.

3) Huge mechanical overload due to overspeed or over boost. Back in the day when it was possible with a manual trans to hook 2nd and not 4th, you could have massive over revs that caused bits of the engine to fly apart, these days, with auto trans it's a lot less likely, and again, the driver would have spotted this event immediately prior to the crank snapping! Long term over boost could result in excessive cyclic fatigue (assume engine hasn't been "chipped" etc!!) but modern EMS systems shut down in case of overboost into limp mode to prevent damage.

4) Casting or machining defect in crankshaft that results in a localised stress raiser, leading to mid cycle fatigue failure of the crank. This one you can't spot from the driving seat!


So, assuming the engine was running normally, with no obvious roughness or vibration, then really that leaves case 4 as the only realistic cause of this crank snapping. Modern manufacturing techniques are very robust, but they cannot have a 100% reliability (well, not for a sensible cost anyway) A small material defect during the crank manufacture that led to a mid cycle failure (ie not immediately nor at end-of-life / high mileage) is very difficult to find, unless you are going to get into F1 levels of component testing (which , realistically, for a production car, you ain't)

Modern engines are highly stressed, in order to deliver the max performance with the lowest mass and highest efficiency. The crank on a modern high boost DI engine gets a real beating, and small material or machining defects result in high local stresses, that cause a small crack to propagate into a big one, and then, "SNAP" the crank fails completely.

The good news, is that such a failure tends to leave obvious signs, so assuming JLR are carrying out a post mortem on your engine (and they should be) then you might be able to ask if they have traced the root cause!


The one thing we can pretty much (99% certainty imo) is any direct link to the Urea Fluid Quality issue!

MrBGR

Original Poster:

130 posts

152 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
The one thing we can pretty much (99% certainty imo) is any direct link to the Urea Fluid Quality issue!
Max Torque, you clearly know your stuff and I don't disagree with your last line, thank you for the full and qualified answer!

How about we throw this into the mix...

My Hybrid model is a pairing of a Land Rover 3.0-litre V6 (254bhp) diesel engine and eight-speed automatic gearbox with a 81bhp electric motor mounted in the standard transmission casing, harnessing both power sources, combined output is 335bhp.

The electric motor develops 125lb ft of torque, which contributes to an overall output of 516lb ft – a 73lb ft increase over the standard V6 diesel engine.

A regenerative braking system means that the electric motor acts as a generator when you lift off the throttle, simultaneously charging the battery and slowing the car.

So they have made the 3.0 L engine create the same BHP and 0 - 60 MPH as the 4.4 L SDV8 0-6 with similar torque.

As for obvious reasons they can't share a common crank.

Could an overloaded/underrated crank be the issue!?

Edited by MrBGR on Saturday 24th June 14:37

saaby93

32,038 posts

177 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
Wont the value of the vehicle go up with a new engine with only xx miles on it??

832ark

1,224 posts

155 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
Can afford a £100k car, doesn't know the difference between effect and affect.

edo

16,699 posts

264 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
JLR just dont seem to be able to sort their quality

MrBGR

Original Poster:

130 posts

152 months

Saturday 24th June 2017
quotequote all
saaby93 said:
Wont the value of the vehicle go up with a new engine with only xx miles on it??
I think for some it could be ok or even a positive but for others an issue as the car now has a story and many other Range Rovers out there don't have one.

I know I would walk away, but I guess we are all different.

This is not the first warranty claim, I have a long list including the front brakes and discs which I have never heard of being done under warranty but then they are linked to regenerative charging system when braking...

I guess my point is why should I be in this position of uncertainty in the first place for a so called "luxury Land Rover SUV"...