RE: Jaguar XE SV Project 8 - official!
Discussion
Dan_1981 said:
But I don't understand why it's so heavy.
It's heavy because JLR.They are not, despite being enormously better than they used to be, what i would call a "joined up" company, or for that matter a "100%" company either (and i'm not being mean, spiteful or rude here (well maybe a bit rude) because JLR are a big client of mine!)
This is how the Germans work:
"we need a new platform, target is 1550kg, go to it engineers"
"we are extremely, sorry, but it's turned out to be 1600kg"
"NEIN!,not good enough, back you go!"
" ok, we've had another go, it's 1575kg"
(begrudgingly) "schizer, i suppose that will do, but don't ever fail me again"
This is how JLR works:
"we need a new platform, target is 1350kg, go to it engineers"
"er, sorry, it's turned out to be 1750kg"
(resigned) "oh well, that'll have to do, won't it"
ie, JLR set ridiculously difficult targets and them completely fail to meet them, whereas the Germans are both more realistic in their target setting, and much better at actually getting pretty close.
The GOOD news is that, and i have no idea why it took so long, JLR finally realised about 10 years ago that if they make products people actually WANT to buy, then they will buy them, despite the slightly second rate performance and slightly iffy reliability!
I salute Jag for building this it may be heavy but that doesn't mean it won't be a good enjoyable steer & with only 300 being made for worldwide sales I reckon they'll sell the lot.
Yes the E63/M5/RS6 will do a similar job but will they be as good to drive? No one knows that answer all are the thick end of 100k anyway & if the Jag goes as well/better than the M4 GTS then it's justified it's price tag.
Yes the E63/M5/RS6 will do a similar job but will they be as good to drive? No one knows that answer all are the thick end of 100k anyway & if the Jag goes as well/better than the M4 GTS then it's justified it's price tag.
M4SER said:
Max_Torque said:
Sure, that rear wing could be set at an angle of attack that really loads the back, but then the car would be a pig at high speed due to the front rear imbalance, so they are going to run the wing at a much lower AOA (which also means it can do 200mph due to less drag) to balance the aero contribution, but that means, being a typical 3 box saloon car, the body shape will be producing something like 300 or more kg of lift at 186mph! And without a rolling floor full scale tunnel, no amount of uncorrelated CFD is going to help!
Still despite being a massive white orange elephant it's a likeable one just for the fact they've actually gone ahead and made it ;-)
The front aero is adjustable too. For max downforce you angle the rear wing AND extend the front splitter, to balance the additional downforce front and rear. If you're going to Goodwood this weekend, the engineers behind Project8 will be on hand to discuss this in more detail. Still despite being a massive
Then you get to the issue that creating significant downforce at the front of a saloon style car is HIGHLY ride height dependent (because it comes from stalling airflow, and not from accelerating it). So you run a low ride height and a massive splitter and all is good with the world, till you hit that little bump in the road, the front downforce evaporates and before your can say "ooh, er" or "cripes" you've understeered into a hedge... ;-)
For these reasons, NET POSITIVE downforce on a typical 3box saloon shaped road car is a pipe dream as far as is currently technologically possible! Of course, any lift reduction is good, and i'm not knocking the car, as it's brilliant to see JLR raising their game and building these sorts of specials!
(trust me, i know how much work goes into this sort of thing, and just how hard it actually is to take a fully line built, fully homologated road car and try to "hot it up" as we used to say back in the day!
Here's one i did earlier btw:
(i'm sure you remember it! Pretty tame mods by comparison with P8, and feels like a LONG time ago now......)
Genuinely wonder why people get so hung up on Jags being heavier than their rivals. They don't feel any heavier to drive and unless you go for a big petrol V8 or the like the economy figures aren't far out of line compared to competitors in class. Is everyone else having to actually lift their vehicles up from time to time or something, that an extra 175kg compared to a C class (made up example) actually makes a real, practical difference to anyone?
Max_Torque said:
All well and good, but this is a road car. So you simply can't have a big enough, or low enough front splitter to balance downforce with a wing THAT big out back (because you still need to be able to get over speed humps, and kerbs etc)
Hence why there's a track only mode (extended front splitter, angled rear wing and lowered ride height) and road mode (retracted front splitter, less angled wing and raised ride height). The underfloor aero has been closely looked at too, P8 has as close to a flat floor as can be achieved, vented bonnet, sill extensions and trick aero around the wheel arches. As I said earlier, best speak to the engineers at Goodwood, they wouldn't quote figures that weren't achievable.
This is awesome. Jaguar have come so far in such a short space of time. It's brilliant to see Jaguar and Aston making one off extreme cars like this. This looks pretty reasonable price wise to me, when you consider how extensive the modifications are.
Knowing how much even a subtle change can cost, I don't think they will be making huge money out of this project. Great to see there are still car guys (and girls!) making the decisions.
Knowing how much even a subtle change can cost, I don't think they will be making huge money out of this project. Great to see there are still car guys (and girls!) making the decisions.
8bit said:
Genuinely wonder why people get so hung up on Jags being heavier than their rivals. They don't feel any heavier to drive and unless you go for a big petrol V8 or the like the economy figures aren't far out of line compared to competitors in class. Is everyone else having to actually lift their vehicles up from time to time or something, that an extra 175kg compared to a C class (made up example) actually makes a real, practical difference to anyone?
Yep, I wonder that as well, do they try and bench press it ?Stock answer will be handling, that few extra kilos makes all the difference on the way to Ikea, can shave a few tenths off on the commute and can fully commit to go flat through the one way system in Slough Town centre.
Its not a racing car, its a road car with racing affectations, its all about having the fastest and flashiest, not actually whether it goes round a track quicker than whatever, and anything on a circuit, any kind of racing is utterly pointless anyway, sure, its fun and exciting but it is the most self indulgent and frivolous pursuit known to man. Its a car, its for carrying people and stuff and this one happens to go faster than the average car, with the idea that the driver will enjoy that more than one with a quarter of the power, which would still do the same job 90 odd percent of the time.
Ok, lighter is preferable, but a tubbers worth of extra weight when you have 600 bhp or so at your disposal is hardly the end of the world.
J4CKO said:
Ok, lighter is preferable, but a tubbers worth of extra weight when you have 600 bhp or so at your disposal is hardly the end of the world.
More about the doggedness of the pursuit of excellence (to quote a rival). The weight saving paid for by this premium version can be trickled down into the less premium models too. Depending on the cost obviously - carbon fibre seats might be a stretch too far but composite or ally replacing steel somewhere might be a goer.rodericb said:
J4CKO said:
Ok, lighter is preferable, but a tubbers worth of extra weight when you have 600 bhp or so at your disposal is hardly the end of the world.
More about the doggedness of the pursuit of excellence (to quote a rival). The weight saving paid for by this premium version can be trickled down into the less premium models too. Depending on the cost obviously - carbon fibre seats might be a stretch too far but composite or ally replacing steel somewhere might be a goer.Also, there is a lot of variance with car weights, or more specifically how they are weight, with or without fluids, and in some cases an 80 kilo driver was included, wasn't that the Focus RS that had a driver listed as part of the weight, need to compare like with like for it to be meaningful ?
- Note, tested with fluids, driver, his wife, four year old kid, mother in law, a weeks shopping, bootful of crap and mother in laws obese Labrador.
rodericb said:
The weight saving paid for by this premium version can be trickled down into the less premium models too. Depending on the cost obviously - carbon fibre seats might be a stretch too far but composite or ally replacing steel somewhere might be a goer.
Unlikely. XE is already largely aluminium with the exception of the doors and trunk lid. None of which are going to be replaced with more exotic items for a production vehicle.
griffsomething said:
Awesome.
One question though, what were Projects 1-6 if the F-Type was number 7 and this is number 8??
The Project 7 was named in reference to the number of times Jaguar had won Le Mans - given that the Project 7 was styled after a D-Type.One question though, what were Projects 1-6 if the F-Type was number 7 and this is number 8??
Which then begs the question as to when they recently won, in order to raise this to an eight...?
Poetic licence, I suspect!
AshBurrows said:
Kenny Powers said:
LHD-only could very well be an engineering and packaging consideration with engine and drivetrain.
It is. But it's still irritating for a British company. So... do you engineer it so that it suits one primary market, in which just about all of the buyers will have some familiarity with and experience in the concept of a steering wheel on the wrong side? Or do you engineer it so that it suits the majority of primary markets, in which a much smaller swathe of buyers will have that familiarity and experience?
Andy665 said:
I thought this was an enthusiasts forum - seems like an awful lot of moaning and whinging
Look where Jaguar has come in the last 20 years - a real transformation
The level of differentiation between this car and the regular XE is far greater than that between an M4 and M4 GTS
If this had a German badge on the nose people would be gushing and fawning all over it - because its Jaguar people snipe
Sure, its a vanity halo project, just like the Black series, the GTS cars etc - and none the worse for it. Jaguar is booming, confident and that helps secure British jobs and provides more choice in a market dominated by German brands - why the b
hing?
I think some people are knocking it BECAUSE they're car enthusiasts. This is just a money making exercise by Jaguar... pure and simple. As others have already pointed out it has been designed specifically for collectors and investors (generally one in the same as the collectors never drive drive their vehicles). Why, then, should we be excited by this? I was equally turned off by the overpriced BMW M4 GTS. No one is arguing that Jaguar will probably make a handsome profit on each one but investment vehicles (pun intended) like this leave me cold and slightly depressed. This is the automotive equivalent of a relatively fine wine that no one will ever drink. I'm not criticising Jaguar (yes, they have come a long way) for making money but what's so special about a souped up rep-mobile that weighs too much, costs too much and seems to occupy a strange niche whereby it is compromised on both road and track? Look where Jaguar has come in the last 20 years - a real transformation
The level of differentiation between this car and the regular XE is far greater than that between an M4 and M4 GTS
If this had a German badge on the nose people would be gushing and fawning all over it - because its Jaguar people snipe
Sure, its a vanity halo project, just like the Black series, the GTS cars etc - and none the worse for it. Jaguar is booming, confident and that helps secure British jobs and provides more choice in a market dominated by German brands - why the b
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