RE: Alfa Romeo vs BMW M vs Mercedes-AMG: PH Video

RE: Alfa Romeo vs BMW M vs Mercedes-AMG: PH Video

Author
Discussion

FN2TypeR

7,091 posts

92 months

Saturday 8th July 2017
quotequote all
I wouldn't grump if I were given the Merc, but I wouldn't buy it, those looks - the arse end looks melted, what were they thinking?

I'd take the Alfa, but the BMW in saloon guise is a mouth watering prospect too, a chap that lives nearby has one in a sort of baby blue, it looks bloody marvellous

rtz62

3,340 posts

154 months

Saturday 8th July 2017
quotequote all
HIAO said:
Jimmy Recard said:
Practically a post a month for 13 years!

Nice going
Do you mean 1 post every 9 months?

I rather favour quality posts over quantity.
Not everyone lives their lives vicariously on the internet, we all have choices. I often follow threads but don't always comment.
As Dennis Thatcher once said "Better to say nothing and be though a fool, than to open ones mouth and have it confirmed..."
With regards to the video, I would find the Alfa seductively irresistible, despite the test showing it in its worst light.
I agree, it isn't a level playing field, it's like, and forgive the simile as it's not meant as an insult to anyone, (I'm disabled myself, before anyone asks) comparing finalist in the 100m, with one of the runners being a Paralympian.
What I feel pretty sure in saying is that I'm sure Dan and the boys will provide an updated test and video with all three protagonists in full health; can Dan confirm this for us?

mike9009

6,918 posts

242 months

Saturday 8th July 2017
quotequote all
Jimmy Recard said:
Julian Thompson said:
My m4 comp feels real world faster on the road and more accessible than my 991gt3 - to say it's "not quite there" is confusing to me! Sure it doesn't have the steering of the Porsche but then neither do the other two! M3/4 performance is scintillating and BMW have the weight so well under control nowadays. All three of these cars are fantastic but for me the BMW wins because mine is a manual gearbox model and you can't get that in the other two in the UK. I don't care that it's slower on paper - it's just wonderful to drive in every situation and for every occasion.

Edited by Julian Thompson on Saturday 8th July 11:40
Practically a post a month for 13 years!

Nice going
I don't know what school you went to, but.......

vpr

3,701 posts

237 months

Saturday 8th July 2017
quotequote all
Julian Thompson said:
I think the Comp pack is only a bit better than standard but (I had a standard M4 previously and loved that too) genuinely I can't understand the criticism of the chassis even in the normal m4 - I mean it has over 400 horsepower and 600 odd nm of torque available from a very low rpm - of course there will be oversteer - and of course it'll be a bit snappy on those big tyres in the wet if you don't stay alert and treat it with respect! But the suggestion that it snap oversteers with the stability control on is totally at odds with my ownership of both M4's - with the car in out of the box stability control mode it's locked down totally and any hint of naughtiness has the brakes grabbing the opposite wheels and the engine power totally cut to stop inexperienced drivers making a cods of it. Its very safe and you'd need to be doing something incredibly daft to have a problem with the car set up like that.

With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.

I know I'm going to sound like an old fart (well I guess I am now!) but the addition of all these stability controls are a mixed blessing because it seems to me that there is a generation of drivers who are afraid to switch them off and learn how the car behaves - without a proper understanding of how the car moves about under load the driver will NEVER feel confident to exploit the chassis. I think this problem isn't helped by throwaway lines from the motoring journalists like "Let's be brave and switch off the ESP for a lap" which make the general public think that the instant the switch is flicked they will begin to gyrate uncontrollably!

The other thing I notice is that lots of people love to poke fun at cars based on what journalists have said - lots of these people haven't lived with these cars before they sound off and most of them who say they "have driven" the cars probably haven't done more than a 10 minute test drive with the car salesman.
That's a nicely worded response and good to read.

I've had the last 3 M3's (well the Wife has) but I'm not a fan of the F80 but probably because I loved the E90 in every respect and the F80 feels fake and lesser quality

I do however absolutely love the M4DTM having just come back from North Wales with it, I really got to bond.

I'm not that technical and you might be able to explain settings.
There is DSC and MDM, each of which you can turn off and only off as opposed to allowing a bit of free play.

As I understand it, the MDM is the rear traction control and the DSC is the braking on each corner if it suspect it's almost in trouble???

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Saturday 8th July 2017
quotequote all
RacerMike said:
Would be interested to try the competition pack. I’ve driven the standard M3 and found it to be an odd mix of good ingredients with some rather odd calibration. The power delivery seems completely at odds with the chassis. It delivers nothing and then, all of a sudden, everything which coincides perfectly with corners in motorway on ramps! Even with stability control on, it results in some rather alarming snap oversteer! This, added to the fact the electronic diff seemed to decide to lock and unlock at all the wrong moments makes me wonder how I haven’t seen more sitting in hedges backwards!
agree fully with your experiences

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Saturday 8th July 2017
quotequote all
Julian Thompson said:
I think the Comp pack is only a bit better than standard but (I had a standard M4 previously and loved that too) genuinely I can't understand the criticism of the chassis even in the normal m4 - I mean it has over 400 horsepower and 600 odd nm of torque available from a very low rpm - of course there will be oversteer - and of course it'll be a bit snappy on those big tyres in the wet if you don't stay alert and treat it with respect! But the suggestion that it snap oversteers with the stability control on is totally at odds with my ownership of both M4's - with the car in out of the box stability control mode it's locked down totally and any hint of naughtiness has the brakes grabbing the opposite wheels and the engine power totally cut to stop inexperienced drivers making a cods of it. Its very safe and you'd need to be doing something incredibly daft to have a problem with the car set up like that.

With the stability stuff off it's just a big hairy chested monster that is actually very predictable and exploitable - I mean they've taken away all the understeer for you and given you that amazing front end grip - of course physics is going to win if you use that front end beyond the grip point of the back end! It's set up for proper driving and requires proper driving to appreciate and enjoy it - everyone seems to forget that a few years ago supercars were struggling to post numbers like these cars do now and even fast saloons and other rear wheel drive cars were set up towards understeer. The M4 really isn't like that and to be critical of it because of that is probably unfair.

I know I'm going to sound like an old fart (well I guess I am now!) but the addition of all these stability controls are a mixed blessing because it seems to me that there is a generation of drivers who are afraid to switch them off and learn how the car behaves - without a proper understanding of how the car moves about under load the driver will NEVER feel confident to exploit the chassis. I think this problem isn't helped by throwaway lines from the motoring journalists like "Let's be brave and switch off the ESP for a lap" which make the general public think that the instant the switch is flicked they will begin to gyrate uncontrollably!

The other thing I notice is that lots of people love to poke fun at cars based on what journalists have said - lots of these people haven't lived with these cars before they sound off and most of them who say they "have driven" the cars probably haven't done more than a 10 minute test drive with the car salesman.
Harris liked it, so not all journos slated it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqGX7Y0GZXE

smile

A quick trawl on here will find numerous comments about the 996 GT2 being a "Widowmaker". I've owned two of them and used the first one as daily for 18k miles..... I drove it in all weathers including sub zero temps, all without incident. I got (and still get) bored/pissed off with "armchair experts" trotting out the same old drivel about them being dangerous, a handful to drive etc.

And as for someone bleating about the Alfa being wrongly slated after it'd broke down ...... rolleyes Yes, I get you enter into Italian car ownership with your eyes wide open to their foibles (well those who crave style over substance seem to ...) but I do wonder at what point does hopeless reliability and crap after service cease to appear some sort of character best viewed through rose tinted spectacles ???? I wouldn't expect any modern daily driver to leave me stranded anywhere, let alone at a race circuit. If it did let me down, it would be consigned to the classifieds or its supplying dealer tout suite.


Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 8th July 22:05

fuchsiasteve

326 posts

205 months

Saturday 8th July 2017
quotequote all
Awful review! Guy in the Alfa is like the Alan Partridge of pistonheads. Bird is a total BMW fanboy. How could anything beat an M3 as they have been honing it for 25 years ?! Nonsense the lot of it!

Selmer Mk6

245 posts

126 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
Is this a more objective comparison?

https://drivetribe.com/p/dSbWP8V3Tu-...SgmRWRSqaUH...

MegaCat

191 posts

139 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
If any of us had an engine warning light come on it is unlikely that we would have continued to rag the car round a race track chasing 2 cars in rude health. it is amazing it lasted as long as it did in the circumstances & not entirely surprising that the ecu finally said enough!
This is one review of a 'pre-production' car supposedly. Yes it is a shame it didn't complete the challenge, so lets have another one - perhaps with the. RS5 for additional 'fun'! ; )

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
Dear PH,

I'd like to complain, in the STRONGEST POSSIBLE TERMS that my particular favorite car didn't 'win' your test.
Please immediately re-do your test to make it quite sure that my favorite is the winner.

Yours Faithfully,


Every oneontheinternetever.


smile

s m

23,164 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
Lots of cars that won the majority of group tests against contemporaries are pooh-poohed at a later date
Reasons ( one or several of )

1. Manufacturer paid for the glowing reviews

2. Journalists wrote one thing and summed-up with a different verdict

3. Test car that lost was in the wrong spec

4 Wrong badge on the nose


Take your pick wink


DeltaEvo2

868 posts

191 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Dear PH,

I'd like to complain, in the STRONGEST POSSIBLE TERMS that my particular favorite car didn't 'win' your test.
Please immediately re-do your test to make it quite sure that my favorite is the winner.

Yours Faithfully,


Every oneontheinternetever.


smile
That is absolutely not the case. We are against biased and sloppy reviews clearly aimed at damaging some brands, 124 Spider and 124 Abarth anyone?
It's particularly annoying when you consider that many, many motoring journalists claimed the Alfa to be the clear winner. PH is renowned to be pro German and Japanese cars but the above review is obscene.

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
DeltaEvo2 said:
Max_Torque said:
Dear PH,

I'd like to complain, in the STRONGEST POSSIBLE TERMS that my particular favorite car didn't 'win' your test.
Please immediately re-do your test to make it quite sure that my favorite is the winner.

Yours Faithfully,


Every oneontheinternetever.


smile
That is absolutely not the case. We are against biased and sloppy reviews clearly aimed at damaging some brands, 124 Spider and 124 Abarth anyone?
It's particularly annoying when you consider that many, many motoring journalists claimed the Alfa to be the clear winner. PH is renowned to be pro German and Japanese cars but the above review is obscene.
The 124 is a bit crap though isn't it?

DeltaEvo2

868 posts

191 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
Autocar = 4 stars

Auto Express = 5 stars

Evo = 4 stars

Car Magazine = 4 stars

Hardly...

aaron_2000

5,407 posts

82 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
Jimmy Recard said:
Practically a post a month for 13 years!

Nice going
First post in years biggrin

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
An Alfa could be the best single derivative in any market segment. It would mean nothing unless the financing costs are competitive and, as importantly, the support network is of the same quality and quantity as the competition.

The dealer network is too small and poor to bring the volume sales in this country.

diehardbenzfan

2,624 posts

156 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
I loved the look of the Alfa til I saw a standard diesel one and it looked identical to the QV minus the exhausts, same as a the c class, could be an AMG line from far, that's why I'd go for the M3

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
DeltaEvo2 said:
We are against biased and sloppy reviews clearly aimed at damaging some brands,
So PH deliberately broke the Alfa?

It that what you are saying?

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
So PH deliberately broke the Alfa?

It that what you are saying?
I think what he is saying is that Haymarket are slaves to their Germanic/Japanese overlords and they are instructed to keep the lowly Alfa down.

Obvs.

anonymous-user

53 months

Sunday 9th July 2017
quotequote all
There's no car enthusiast so blind as those who wear the rosso tinted glasses of Alfa Romeo. For genuine swivel eyed lunacy spend a bit of time getting a bit more acquainted with certain folk on the largest owners forum. "It's all a conspiracy, bleat bleat bleat, German manufacturers pay journo wages bleat bleat bleat, if you can't accept it's all part of the character then you just don't get it etc etc". Utter tosh. Anyway I digress.

I have just sold, at a not insignificant loss, my Giulia Quadrifoglio and swapped it for an M4 Comp Pack Convertible.

The Quad was a stunning car when it worked. Just like the PH car it failed and went into limp mode on several occasions. It wa subject to two software recalls and yet still couldn't be trusted. I feel in love with it and desperately wanted to keep it but I'm not prepared to be a beta tester and drive around in a car which fails abjectly but the manufacturer cannot diagnose or tell me why.

M4 is different. It's not better, just different. Sadly it doesn't feel as special.

A sad experience all round.