Looking at buying a diesel now?
Discussion
With the news articles about VW, and now Mercedes around emission reports etc. How sensible is it to look at buying a diesel car in this day and age?
My point is, I was looking at buying a F30 330D (2013/2014 car) and planned to run it for 5-8 years. Do you think there likely to be a big change in people buying car's? And diesel's will loose a lot of value?
My point is, I was looking at buying a F30 330D (2013/2014 car) and planned to run it for 5-8 years. Do you think there likely to be a big change in people buying car's? And diesel's will loose a lot of value?
I think the biggest worry is the particulate pollution that affects pedestrians in built up areas. London are already cracking down on this, starting on October this year, and many people are predicting that an outright ban on diesels in central London will take place soon. Have a look into the 'ULEZ standards' - personally I found it impossible to find out what I wanted to know, but have a go! In terms of VED, vehicles are of course taxed according to their greenhouse gas emissions, which are lower for diesels on average, so you're fine (I drive a diesel and pay about £20 a year!). It's inevitable that other cities will eventually follow London's example, but I think we're talking quite a few years yet, probably more than you'll keep the car for.
I guess the situation in London may affect the resale value of diesels, especially close to London. Personally it wouldn't bother me at all, as I never drive in London and hardly ever in towns. I'd go ahead and buy a diesel if it's the car you want, but be wary if you live within or close to the M25 and want to sell the car on.
I guess the situation in London may affect the resale value of diesels, especially close to London. Personally it wouldn't bother me at all, as I never drive in London and hardly ever in towns. I'd go ahead and buy a diesel if it's the car you want, but be wary if you live within or close to the M25 and want to sell the car on.
E36GUY said:
If you're anywhere near London your diesel is going to need to be Euro6 compliant or it's getting clobbered for loads of extras. Westminster have already put up parking charges for non-euro6 and the congestion charge is doing the same.
The 330d is euro6 compliant, does that mean in some ways it's future proof for the next 10 years?I think you will be fine if you buy them now, I was advised against it by several people, dont really want one but not ruling it out if I get a daily hack estate car or whatever as so many are diesels, the standard line is "Dont get a diesel you will get hammered for tax", hmm, current car is £535 per annum and does 18 to the gallon, how much more hammering is a 2 litre diesel going to get.
Loads of reasons not to go diesel but the tax situation isnt one, it might go up but it wont be straight away and it wont be vast increases, it will be small, incremental increases to make it less advantageous, not f
k you its 2 grand a year to tax a diesel, the country runs on the stuff, haulage, public transport, deliveries etc, so it needs to be delicately handled so as not to cause undue unrest, it will come in over a number of years, the main issue is people panicking and trying to offload diesel cars in huge numbers because of what might happen, creating a self fulfilling prophecy of losing money, just not through the route they imagine.
It amazes me how terrified people are of VED, I was helping a lady I know get a car and I suggested a 1.4 petrol model "Oh I cant have that, its got the expensive tax", i.e. it wasnt free, then bought a 1 litre Yaris with an Aygo engine for 8 grand and wonder why it feels like its broken, same with folk spending 20 grand on diesels, then crib over another £40 on VED, weight up the whole cost and then decide whether the enjoyment of a car is worth something, cost vs value.
Funny how so many miss the £200 a month depreciation in a lot of calculations but consider it a huge victory to save £4.52 a month on VED.
Loads of reasons not to go diesel but the tax situation isnt one, it might go up but it wont be straight away and it wont be vast increases, it will be small, incremental increases to make it less advantageous, not f
k you its 2 grand a year to tax a diesel, the country runs on the stuff, haulage, public transport, deliveries etc, so it needs to be delicately handled so as not to cause undue unrest, it will come in over a number of years, the main issue is people panicking and trying to offload diesel cars in huge numbers because of what might happen, creating a self fulfilling prophecy of losing money, just not through the route they imagine.It amazes me how terrified people are of VED, I was helping a lady I know get a car and I suggested a 1.4 petrol model "Oh I cant have that, its got the expensive tax", i.e. it wasnt free, then bought a 1 litre Yaris with an Aygo engine for 8 grand and wonder why it feels like its broken, same with folk spending 20 grand on diesels, then crib over another £40 on VED, weight up the whole cost and then decide whether the enjoyment of a car is worth something, cost vs value.
Funny how so many miss the £200 a month depreciation in a lot of calculations but consider it a huge victory to save £4.52 a month on VED.
Aftershox said:
The 330d is euro6 compliant, does that mean in some ways it's future proof for the next 10 years?
It's OK for now but I don't think anyone really knows the answer to that longer term. I just got a E220D brand new but it's leased so I kinda don't care if the market falls out of diesels over the next few years. The cars we own are petrol. Not sure I would personally buy a diesel now.
E36GUY said:
Aftershox said:
The 330d is euro6 compliant, does that mean in some ways it's future proof for the next 10 years?
It's OK for now but I don't think anyone really knows the answer to that longer term. I just got a E220D brand new but it's leased so I kinda don't care if the market falls out of diesels over the next few years. The cars we own are petrol. Not sure I would personally buy a diesel now.
For example, I do 30k miles a year at any average of about 65mpg (for the sake of simplicity we'll ignore the few thousand I do towing at low mpg). My annual fuel costs are therefore about £2500. Over ten years that's £25k. If I had the petrol equivalent of my car that averaged 38mpg, then that would cost me £4300 pa, or £43k over ten years. So my diesel is saving me £18k over ten years. In my case then, that would easily pay for the loss of resale value and some public transport in cities. Obviously if you do a lower mileage then this effect will change. For example at 15k miles it's obviously only a £9k saving.
Unless you live in (or commute into) London, I would have thought that now is the perfect time for buying a big diesel if your miles justify it. The cars are presumably cheaper (no one wants them), diesel will still exist without insane taxes because lorries use it, and if you're doing 20K a year, then the only thing that matters is MPG.
graham22 said:
I think there will still be a market for big engine mile eating diesels. The market for small diesel 'town cars' is where things will fall as new petrol engines take over.
Good post, agree. If I ever sound "anti-diesel" I'm not. I'd happily schlep down to the south of france in a E350 CDI.What boils my piss in my skinflint (London) neighbours running a whole fleet of sooty little clatterboxes to save 5p a day and filling my lungs with soot and NOx.
That's just wrong. There have always been tons of cheap petrol runabouts available for all the short hop stuff they do.
RobM77 said:
It always pays to get a calculator out though.
For example, I do 30k miles a year at any average of about 65mpg (for the sake of simplicity we'll ignore the few thousand I do towing at low mpg). My annual fuel costs are therefore about £2500. Over ten years that's £25k. If I had the petrol equivalent of my car that averaged 38mpg, then that would cost me £4300 pa, or £43k over ten years. So my diesel is saving me £18k over ten years. In my case then, that would easily pay for the loss of resale value and some public transport in cities. Obviously if you do a lower mileage then this effect will change. For example at 15k miles it's obviously only a £9k saving.
For most cars, the difference is less than that though. Very few diesel cars get a genuine 65mpg, and nothing bigger than a 3 series will get close.For example, I do 30k miles a year at any average of about 65mpg (for the sake of simplicity we'll ignore the few thousand I do towing at low mpg). My annual fuel costs are therefore about £2500. Over ten years that's £25k. If I had the petrol equivalent of my car that averaged 38mpg, then that would cost me £4300 pa, or £43k over ten years. So my diesel is saving me £18k over ten years. In my case then, that would easily pay for the loss of resale value and some public transport in cities. Obviously if you do a lower mileage then this effect will change. For example at 15k miles it's obviously only a £9k saving.
Taking a Leon as an example (because my wife has one and I've also driven the diesel), I've managed to get about 62mpg out of the 1.6 diesel version I had as a hire car. My wife's car (1.2 TSI petrol) is averaging about 52mpg on her 50 miles motorway commute. Translated to fuel cost at £5 per gallon (£1.10 per litre) over 30000 miles that's £2415 for the diesel or £2880 for the petrol.
The diesel driver may haved saved £450 ish per year, but most of this will be lost when paying for a new DPF when that clogs and fails after a few years.
AC43 said:
graham22 said:
I think there will still be a market for big engine mile eating diesels. The market for small diesel 'town cars' is where things will fall as new petrol engines take over.
Good post, agree. If I ever sound "anti-diesel" I'm not. I'd happily schlep down to the south of france in a E350 CDI.What boils my piss in my skinflint (London) neighbours running a whole fleet of sooty little clatterboxes to save 5p a day and filling my lungs with soot and NOx.
That's just wrong. There have always been tons of cheap petrol runabouts available for all the short hop stuff they do.
Not only does the financial argument make sense for diesels out of town, there's also an auditory argument. I spend almost all my time driving above 30-40mph, so I never really hear my engine, but in first gear in the work car park it's very obvious indeed.SkodaIan said:
RobM77 said:
It always pays to get a calculator out though.
For example, I do 30k miles a year at any average of about 65mpg (for the sake of simplicity we'll ignore the few thousand I do towing at low mpg). My annual fuel costs are therefore about £2500. Over ten years that's £25k. If I had the petrol equivalent of my car that averaged 38mpg, then that would cost me £4300 pa, or £43k over ten years. So my diesel is saving me £18k over ten years. In my case then, that would easily pay for the loss of resale value and some public transport in cities. Obviously if you do a lower mileage then this effect will change. For example at 15k miles it's obviously only a £9k saving.
For most cars, the difference is less than that though. Very few diesel cars get a genuine 65mpg, and nothing bigger than a 3 series will get close.For example, I do 30k miles a year at any average of about 65mpg (for the sake of simplicity we'll ignore the few thousand I do towing at low mpg). My annual fuel costs are therefore about £2500. Over ten years that's £25k. If I had the petrol equivalent of my car that averaged 38mpg, then that would cost me £4300 pa, or £43k over ten years. So my diesel is saving me £18k over ten years. In my case then, that would easily pay for the loss of resale value and some public transport in cities. Obviously if you do a lower mileage then this effect will change. For example at 15k miles it's obviously only a £9k saving.
Taking a Leon as an example (because my wife has one and I've also driven the diesel), I've managed to get about 62mpg out of the 1.6 diesel version I had as a hire car. My wife's car (1.2 TSI petrol) is averaging about 52mpg on her 50 miles motorway commute. Translated to fuel cost at £5 per gallon (£1.10 per litre) over 30000 miles that's £2415 for the diesel or £2880 for the petrol.
The diesel driver may haved saved £450 ish per year, but most of this will be lost when paying for a new DPF when that clogs and fails after a few years.
RobM77 said:
AC43 said:
graham22 said:
I think there will still be a market for big engine mile eating diesels. The market for small diesel 'town cars' is where things will fall as new petrol engines take over.
Good post, agree. If I ever sound "anti-diesel" I'm not. I'd happily schlep down to the south of france in a E350 CDI.What boils my piss in my skinflint (London) neighbours running a whole fleet of sooty little clatterboxes to save 5p a day and filling my lungs with soot and NOx.
That's just wrong. There have always been tons of cheap petrol runabouts available for all the short hop stuff they do.
Not only does the financial argument make sense for diesels out of town, there's also an auditory argument. I spend almost all my time driving above 30-40mph, so I never really hear my engine, but in first gear in the work car park it's very obvious indeed.A lot of the lager diesel multis seem fine from outside - RR TDV8's, E350's and the like presumably have tons of cladding as theu sound fine.
But the smaller, super-high compression 4's in small cars are noisy, especially at start up.
Ironically many are bought for the "right reasons" it's just they should never have been sold and/or used as city cars.
Just about all of my neighbours have multiple cars and most use public transport for the commute so there's really no excuse here in Zone 2 London.
mikal83 said:
SkodaIan said:
RobM77 said:
It always pays to get a calculator out though.
For example, I do 30k miles a year at any average of about 65mpg (for the sake of simplicity we'll ignore the few thousand I do towing at low mpg). My annual fuel costs are therefore about £2500. Over ten years that's £25k. If I had the petrol equivalent of my car that averaged 38mpg, then that would cost me £4300 pa, or £43k over ten years. So my diesel is saving me £18k over ten years. In my case then, that would easily pay for the loss of resale value and some public transport in cities. Obviously if you do a lower mileage then this effect will change. For example at 15k miles it's obviously only a £9k saving.
For most cars, the difference is less than that though. Very few diesel cars get a genuine 65mpg, and nothing bigger than a 3 series will get close.For example, I do 30k miles a year at any average of about 65mpg (for the sake of simplicity we'll ignore the few thousand I do towing at low mpg). My annual fuel costs are therefore about £2500. Over ten years that's £25k. If I had the petrol equivalent of my car that averaged 38mpg, then that would cost me £4300 pa, or £43k over ten years. So my diesel is saving me £18k over ten years. In my case then, that would easily pay for the loss of resale value and some public transport in cities. Obviously if you do a lower mileage then this effect will change. For example at 15k miles it's obviously only a £9k saving.
Taking a Leon as an example (because my wife has one and I've also driven the diesel), I've managed to get about 62mpg out of the 1.6 diesel version I had as a hire car. My wife's car (1.2 TSI petrol) is averaging about 52mpg on her 50 miles motorway commute. Translated to fuel cost at £5 per gallon (£1.10 per litre) over 30000 miles that's £2415 for the diesel or £2880 for the petrol.
The diesel driver may haved saved £450 ish per year, but most of this will be lost when paying for a new DPF when that clogs and fails after a few years.
Regarding the DPF, I've never had one fail and I'm on my second diesel. I find the notion that a diesel will go through one a year for ten years rather far fetched. I'm new to diesel though, maybe I've been lucky? That said, again it's just a matter of maths. For my mileage and mpg I could afford to replace the DPF six months and soak it in Dom Perignon before fitting it
I should say that I did have a turbo fail on my first diesel. It cost me £1500 to replace it, but I recouped this in mileage savings in 7 months. For a driver doing 15k a year this would be 14 months. etc etc. I also can't stand the way modern petrol engine road cars respond, so for me to run a modern petrol road car you'd have to factor in me pushing the car off a cliff every 6-12 months, which is going to get quite pricey after a while.
My message is to do the maths yourself rather than just relying on gut instinct or internet hearsay. My other message is to judge the costs against the car you want to drive. You may prefer petrol and are happy to pay for the privilege of driving one (like my Dad, who's just switched from diesel back to petrol), which is fair enough. When I bought my first diesel I did about 5k miles a year, but I simply couldn't find a petrol car that did what I wanted a car to do.
I drive a diesel at the moment, my first.
Most of nice things I can say about it are related to fuel efficiency. As a real push, I could perhaps find some merit in the fact it is "effortless" in 3rd and 4th gear ( for motorway slip roads etc).
From a driving enjoyment perspective, I am paid up member of the "diesels are for vans and tractor" brigade. They have a place, and that place is usually dictated by running costs. If anything else is a priority, grab the petrol version. A 330i is a much nicer car than the 330d in my opinion. And the 330d is probably one of the best diesels out there.
Most of nice things I can say about it are related to fuel efficiency. As a real push, I could perhaps find some merit in the fact it is "effortless" in 3rd and 4th gear ( for motorway slip roads etc).
From a driving enjoyment perspective, I am paid up member of the "diesels are for vans and tractor" brigade. They have a place, and that place is usually dictated by running costs. If anything else is a priority, grab the petrol version. A 330i is a much nicer car than the 330d in my opinion. And the 330d is probably one of the best diesels out there.
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